Jomon Fishing Site Discovered

Yomiuri.com ^ | 3-29-2004 | Yomiuri Shimbun

[Fedora]

Some of the South American natives have a 'Chinese like' attraction to jade.

That is one thing that strikes me as a big potential clue: if it were possible to establish any cultural and/or chronological correlation between jade art styles in China and America, it might help pinpoint when cultural exchange may have occurred.

[Fedora]

Very good info you mention there--I need to read up on some of that. I do recall being surprised to learn how advanced Vietnamese culture was at a very early stage. One of my own theories is that the contact between Sumeria and the Indus Valley c. 2500-1700 BC may have influenced culture in SE Asia and China at an early stage.

[JimSEA]

Sorry for my really sad spelling and typing. I tend to agree as the date for the Indic cultural influence keeps getting pushed back. Interestingly, unlike so many meetings of quite different cultures, ther are not signs of genocide and large scale population disruptions. A lot of this probably results from Buddhist influence but the first contacts brought Hindu culture and dieties as is reflected in Khmer and Dvaravati, Champa, and Sirivijaya where Buddhism and Hindu mixed. It really is hard to sort things out, particularly when, where there were written records, they were highly perisable.

[Fedora]

A lot of this probably results from Buddhist influence but the first contacts brought Hindu culture and dieties as is reflected in Khmer and Dvaravati, Champa, and Sirivijaya where Buddhism and Hindu mixed. It really is hard to sort things out, particularly when, where there were written records, they were highly perisable.

I imagine that's even a harder problem when dealing with pre-Buddhist periods. BTW, when did writing first appear in SE Asia?

[JimSEA]

Definitly with the introduction of Hinduism and Buddhism (200 BC to 100 AD), Pali is taught in the monistaries to this day. Chinese would have been used in Nang Chau but incriptions don't appear in Chinese the more Southern areas. Thai written script appears first in the 1200's but in such a form that it might have been in use earlier (Its invention is ascribed to King Ramkanghang). Although metallurgy, agriculture, pottery and walled cities all occured with the Ban Chiang Culture, there is no sign of any writing.

[mtbopfuyn]

Interesting the article made it seem like it was a trapping place for dolphin, as in many. However, it stated later that they found the bones of what might have "a" dolphin, as in one dolphin. So, what was it? Many dolphin, one dolphin, or something the cat dragged in?

[blam]

"I do recall being surprised to learn how advanced Vietnamese culture was at a very early stage."

The oldest iron (maybe bronze, forgot which) making site in the world is located in Thailand. That suprised me.

[blam]

"Didn't they have a Japanese branch, too, though?--maybe I'm misremembering that. Here's the link I think I'm trying to remember on that: "

The Hakka have origins in northern China and over the centuries they migrated all the way across China (those with caucasian features were persecuted and slaughtered on the way) mainly into Guandong province but also to Japan, Korea, Taiwan and today, all over the world. To this day, they are referred to as the 'guests.' My local Chinese restaurant owner was shocked when I asked her if she was Hakka and when she said "yes", I said, "Ah "the guests." We're pretty good friends now, lol.

[Fedora]

The oldest iron (maybe bronze, forgot which) making site in the world is located in Thailand. That suprised me.

Huh, interesting. I hadn't heard that before, so I just looked it up. I guess the site is named Ban Chiang:

Ban Chiang

Bang Chiang is an archeological site located in the Udon Thani province, Thailand. It is listed in the UNESCO world heritage list.

Discovered in 1957 it attracted enormous publicity due to attractive red painted pottery. The first scientific excavation was made in 1967 and uncovered several skeletons together with bronze grave gifts. Rice fragments have also been found, which prove that the bronze age settlement was made by farmers. The oldest graves found contain no bronze and are therefore from a neolithic culture; the latest ones are from the iron age.

The first datings of the artefacts using the thermoluminescence technique resulted in 4420 BC-3400 BC, which would have made the site the earliest ever bronze age culture of the world. However with the 1974/75 excavation enough material for radiocarbon dating became available, which resulted in much later dates - the earliest grave was at about 2100 BC, the latest of 1320 BC-1000 BC.

References

Charles Higham, Prehistoric Thailand, ISBN 9748225305 , pp 84-88

[Fedora]

Definitly with the introduction of Hinduism and Buddhism (200 BC to 100 AD), Pali is taught in the monistaries to this day. Chinese would have been used in Nang Chau but incriptions don't appear in Chinese the more Southern areas. Thai written script appears first in the 1200's but in such a form that it might have been in use earlier (Its invention is ascribed to King Ramkanghang). Although metallurgy, agriculture, pottery and walled cities all occured with the Ban Chiang Culture, there is no sign of any writing.

I guess I should answer these in order next time!--just mentioned Ban Chiang in my Post #69 before noticing you mentioned it here :) Do you know if Ban Chiang artifacts have any type of proto-writing symbolism?

[Fedora]

The Hakka have origins in northern China and over the centuries they migrated all the way across China (those with caucasian features were persecuted and slaughtered on the way) mainly into Guandong province but also to Japan, Korea, Taiwan and today, all over the world. To this day, they are referred to as the 'guests.' My local Chinese restaurant owner was shocked when I asked her if she was Hakka and when she said "yes", I said, "Ah "the guests." We're pretty good friends now, lol.

LOL! Do you have any links to pictures of Hakka? I'd like to see what they look like compared to other Chinese.

[blam]

Here's a A Link Between Chinese and American Cultures? The Olmec and the Shang. Somewhere it's written in China that 250,000 "took to the sea" after the emperor lost the "Mandate Of Heaven" and the Shang dynasty collapsed.

Now, The collapse of the Shang Dynasty aslo coincides with one of Professor Mike Baillie's worldwide catastrophies (1159BC) detected in the tree-rings worldwide. Here's an article by Baillie:

Did Asteroids And Comets Change The Tides Of Civilization?

Mandate of Heaven

Then astronomer Kevin Pang of the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) noted that 1628 B.C. and 1159 B.C. roughly mark the beginning and end of the Shang Dynasty of Bronze Age China. Both ends of the dynasty featured, according to ancient Chinese texts, environmental disasters - dimming of the sun and summer frosts that caused crop failures and famine. Pang notes also the Chinese concept of "mandate of heaven," wherein a dynasty reigned only as long as it protected the well-being of its people. This notion might have originated in the coincidence of dynastic change and climatic disaster.

Some of these Chinese 'refugees' may have ended up in Mexico and gave a 'boost' to the Olmec civilication, huh?

[blam]

"which would have made the site the earliest ever bronze age culture of the world."

There you go, I guess it was bronze. However, the article I read dealt with a smeltering/kiln site discovery.

[blam]

Lots of underwater cities off the coast of India. See post #18 in the article. Is that writing on a pottery shard recovered from the site?

Lost Civilization From 7,500BC Found Off Indian Coast

BTW, the oldest paper ever found was in the Tarim Basin and had the Indo-European language 'Tocharian' written on it.

[blam]

"Do you have any links to pictures of Hakka? I'd like to see what they look like compared to other Chinese."

No. Just descriptions. High nose-bridge, wavy hair, sometimes taller and ocassionally lighter hair/eyes.

Btw, I believe these people to be the asian equivalent of the Scythians. A great drought hit the Tarim Basin region and people migrated east and west...Hakkas-Schytians. (...and they're both related to the Xiongnu, Han, Hun, Saka, etc.)

[Fedora]

Thanks for the links. I've seen some other interesting work on Chinese-Olmec links by the scholar mentioned in that first link, Mike Xu. The main source of information on the Shang dynasty is the Shu ching (aka Shu king, etc.; also Shang shu) or Book of Documents (aka Classic of History, Book of Historical Documents, Documents of Antiquity):

Shu King, the Book of Historical Documents

Unfortunately the first Emperor of the Ch'in Dynasty, Shih Huang Ti, destroyed most copies of the Shu ching, and the copies we have now are based on fragments recovered by Han Dynasty historians and mixed with forgeries, so I think it's difficult to say much with confidence about the Shang Dynasty, apart from archaeological data. I do think the evidence for Chinese-Olmec links is significant, though.

[Fedora]

There you go, I guess it was bronze. However, the article I read dealt with a smeltering/kiln site discovery.

Maybe the article was talking about what's discussed here?

Dr. William Vernon, "The Crucibles of Ban Chiang"

[blam]

"I do think the evidence for Chinese-Olmec links is significant, though."

Yup, more than just 'smoke', there's fire in there some where.

You are extremely good a searches. Do us a favor and see if you can find pictures of some Hakka Chinese. Thanks.

[blam]

Jim, are you still living in Thailand?

[Fedora]

Btw, I believe these people to be the asian equivalent of the Scythians. A great drought hit the Tarim Basin region and people migrated east and west...Hakkas-Schytians. (...and they're both related to the Xiongnu, Han, Hun, Saka, etc.)

Speaking of the Scythians, you just reminded me of a note I jotted down that I meant to pass on to you guys--from my old World Book Encyclopedia:

About A.D. 120, the Scythians from central Asia conquered northern India. Their kings ruled as the Kushan dynasty. . .