Hoon to ditch EuroFighter

TheSUN ^ | 03/02/04 | GEORGE PASCOE-WATSON

[Pikamax]

The bomb's rush ... Geoff Hoon is set to scrap orders for the ill-fated Eurofighter

By GEORGE PASCOE-WATSON
Deputy Political EditorDEFENCE Secretary Geoff Hoon is poised to scrap the Eurofighter warplane — because it’s useless.

Military experts reckon the jet — jointly built by Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy — cannot be used either as a fighter or a bomber.

Now Mr Hoon is on the brink of axeing orders for 177 Eurofighters to ensure taxpayers are not left with a white elephant costing £30billion.

The move risks infuriating our three EU partners.

But Mr Hoon believes RAF pilots will be placed in grave danger if we do not back out.

The planes, called Typhoons, will not carry air-to-air missiles or precision-guided air-to-ground weapons.

Hoon ... on brink of axing orders
Picture: REUTERS

One source said: “The British taxpayer should not end up with a machine that looks pretty at air displays but can’t go into action. Geoff won’t sign up to future phases unless it is fit for going to war. And under current plans, it’s just not up to the job.”

Ministers have already written off £7billion on the first batch of 55 Typhoons.

Pulling out of future orders would cost around £2billion because of penalties in the contract.

Italy, Germany and Spain are all dragging their heels over funding.

Germany has refused to fork out the extra needed to equip the jet with up-to-date weaponry.

The RAF have only taken delivery of four aircraft.

They were four years late and will not be ready for action for another two years.

The project has been plagued by delays and cash overruns since its design 20 years ago.

Experts blame EU-loving ex-Defence Secretary Michael Heseltine for lumbering us with the project.

[VaBthang4]

Not necessary, remotely required [or worth the money].

No...they can fit the current F22 airframe for duel missions. I dont want to see the F22 turn into some 'neither fish nor fowl French pilot's nightmare' but it can be worked as a legitimate ground attack platform [especially tank plinking].
Once the majority of Europ...err...I mean enemy aircraft have been transformed into lawn darts the F22 can turn it's attention to ground attack and possibly CAS.

[rmlew]

You get Congress, the DoD, and the Air Force to fund a stealthy replacement for the F-15E and F-111. (I've seen some pics of heavily modified FB-22s for this.)

Besides, we have our own jack of all trades, the JSF.

[Oztrich Boy]

sheesh. It's the Sun, people.

[spetznaz]

Excuse me? Dumb Iron? The Cat carries more JDAM than any aircraft other than the B-1. Try doing TARPS an anything else. Nothing goes as fast on the Deck, again short of the B-1. The Cat lives because it is good. It lives because it has a bad-ass RADAR. It hurts no egos to fly the BombCat, because as the Iraq War shows, it does what the so-called "Super" Hornet cannot. End the end, it still comes down to Gas and Go.

Hey P.D, i thought the 'Cat was killed and its tooling destroyed to ensure it could not be resurrected (i also heard Cheney had something to do with that although i am not sure. It was allegedly to ensure that the JSF and Superhornet were not scrapped in favor of a 'Cat upgrade). Is the Cheney connection true? And moreover, why did that happen? But most importantly is the 'Cat on its last legs and living on borrowed time?

[Pukin Dog]

All true. Cheney killed the Tomcat. At the time, the necessary upgrades were seen as too expensive. The SuperHornet folks did a great snow sales job on the Pentagon. Now they have a fighter that cant whip the plane it was based on. But damn, it looks good and carries two people, so all those NFOs don't have to find something else to do.

[spetznaz]

Now, this article is rather interesting. For one it seems to state that the EFA is pure rubbish, and not only that but super-expensive ultra-pure rubbish! Now, the super-expensive part is true. The F-22 may be more expensive than the EFA in absolute terms, but in relative terms considering the available budgets for the participating nations, the EFA might probably be the most expensive airframe out there ....relatively.

The thing i am finding problems with is the pure-rubbish component.

I have read articles that state that in terms of production and near-production airframes the EFA is 2nd only to the Raptor. There was even one simulation done that showed the EFA coming second, again, to the Raptor in terms of A2A engagements. Both aircraft were also the only ones that were detecting ,and shooting, first.

Also the article says the following:The planes, called Typhoons, will not carry air-to-air missiles or precision-guided air-to-ground weapons

That is weird because i believe the EFA can carry the following:

Air-superiority: six BVRAAM (Beyond Visual Range)/AMRAAM air-to-air missiles on semi-recessed fuselage stations and two ASRAAM short-range air-to-air missiles on the outer pylons

Air interdiction: four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two cruise missiles and two anti-radar missiles (ARM)

SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences): four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-radar missiles

Multi-role: three AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, two ARM and two GBU-24 Paveway III

Close air support: four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, 18 Brimstone anti-armour missile

Maritime attack: four AMRAAM, two ASRAAM, six anti-ship missiles

Moreover here is a picture of the EFA firing an AMRAAM, which for all respects is an effective BVR A2A missile.

Anyways, the thing that makes me question this article the most is its source. It is from The Sun! Those are the same guys that publish love letters from butlers to princesses and call them news!

Anyways, i am curious as to what the FR airframe experts (Pukin, Pooh, and GR2) have to say about this. Is the EFA a good airplane for what it is supposed to do (which, i believe, is not to fight Raptors but to engage enemy jets), or is it truly a super-expensive ultra-pure piece of trash?

[Pukin Dog]

The EFA is the second-best fighter ever to go into production, period. Most of the nay-sayers are misinformed. I have seen first-hand what the EFA can do, and if we did not have the F-22, we would not have the worlds best fighter aircraft. It will be a damn shame, should the EFA go away.

[Oztrich Boy]

It was allegedly to ensure that the JSF and Superhornet were not scrapped in favor of a 'Cat upgrade). Is the Cheney connection true?

Actually the other way round. The F-14D scapped to allow for introducing the SuperHornet (as a Hornet repalcement) - that this stage (January 91) the JSF wasn't a gleam in anyone's eye.

Cheney killed the Tomcat. At the time, the necessary upgrades were seen as too expensive.

Well they were. It cost 2/3 the cost of a new aircraft to turm a F-14A into a F-14D - and a new aircraft would have at least twice the airframe life of a rebuild. The Navy actually requested the money for the 300 FY91&92 be instead used for 200 new production.

But that would mean dick admitting he was wrong.
The only reason that there was an unpgrade progam was that with new F-14 with 7350 airframe hours (guaranteed - and Grumman was confident that 9000 hours would be achieved) coming into servive in the 90s, what was the point of the NATF?
That aircraft, and the short-lifed F-14 rebuild program, had been pushed onto the a reluctant Navy by Congress in the late 80s.

At the time Grumman and the Navy were looking at developing Super Tomcat-21. Building F-14Ds and later converting them into ST-21s would have been way cheaper that NATF.
But Congress felt that the extra $20 bliiion was justified by the greater experience Northrop or Lockheed had in building naval fighters.
(Side note One of the reasons that better YF-23 lost the ATF was that it was felt that the YF-22 was more adapatble to the naval NATF - then they cancelled the NATF)

So situation late 90
NATF - to replace F-14
A-12 - to replace A-6
CALF - STO/VL to replace Harrier
MRF- Airforce study to replace F-16
in background Super Hornet lobby)

plug pulled on A-12, A-X initiated as substitute. Also rebuild program for A-6E needed because A-6F prodution was cancelled to get money for the NATF
(and with the A-12 coming, was the A-6F really necessary?
My answer: yes. Even if the A-12 had worked, what the USN needs, right now, are low-hour A-6F airframes that could be converted to KA-6H tankers.

January/February : F-14D killed, with the money SuperHornet is proposed.

91: plug pulled on A-12, NATF

F/A-X introduced to replace A-X and NATF

early 90s: Airforce MRF and Navy F/A-X merged in JAST

1994: JAST and CALF merged to JST program

If you have been following this you will realize that the JST is the outcome merging the A-6, A-12, NATF, F-16, anf Harrier replacement. - A role too far?

I've always suspected that experience from the Ju-88 on has demontrated that the only way to get a good multi-role aircraft is to design it originally and uncompromisingly for a single role.

[Light Speed]

Air combat is a unique debate.

Certainly death awaits one if near Python4 and soon to be in operation for Israel[2005]..Python 5 with its full sphere LOBL and LOAL.

Same can be said for AIM 9X.
Some interesting chat on the 2 at F-16 NET.

I imagine Russia is past analog off boresight targeting... not sure what missle-ski they have comp to AIM 9X or Python 4/5

Question is..can Russia,China steal this capability?..or do they have the know how to actually R and D a comparable missile?

But then...is most of the killing going to be by the longer range missile's..with aquisition abilty like these 2 close in killers?

30 secs life expectancy if fired on by AIM 9X and Python 5.

Sudden bye bye too in regards to the long range riders.

IAF caught Syrians jabbering to each other in flight...they cued their launch to the chat frequency..somethin like that.
The entire Syrian flight..6-8 were obliterated without evasive move.

But that was 1982...
Any comments as to what the known fire and forget distances are now P.D.?

[Pukin Dog]

Any comments as to what the known fire and forget distances are now P.D.?

None that I can talk about, but lets just say the Phoenix wont be missed.

I can tell you that there is no escaping the 9x in anything BUT an F-22 and only then by exceeding human G-tolerances and hoping the computer keeps you flying until you wake up. Everybody else is just dead. Pilots will just hop out when they see it coming.

[VaBthang4]

I'd also like to hear GRs take.

[tortoise]

I can tell you that there is no escaping the 9x

For all intents and purposes, absolutely correct. I am familiar with the system, and I don't think most people grasp how capable and sophisticated the system is. It isn't a "heat-seeker" as most people imagine it, it is an imaging system that just happens to use broad-spectrum infrared bands for its imaging, combined with an exceedingly competent software system behind it. You can't fool it; your best hope is to outmaneuver it, but that is a very slim hope.

The only real defense against the late generation guided missiles the US is fielding is active intercept i.e. if someone shoots a missile at you, you shoot it down before it hits you.

[spetznaz]

Yep, GR2 would be welcome right about now (as would Poohbah). According to Pukin Dog the article is hogwash, which kind of flies with me considering the source is the Sun newspaper. I also think the EFA is quite different from the Sun's usual stomping grounds of Princess Di's love letters, the latest Brit pop group's love tryst, and what soccer boots David Beckham is planning to wear for the next English League season.

And anyways when an article says the EFA doesn't even carry missiles, yet photographs are shown of the same airframe firing AMRAAMs, you have to wonder? Pictures speak more than a thousand words .....especially when the words are printed in The Sun.

Personally i think what the article is saying is hogwash. All the sources i have seen claim the EFA is 2nd only to the F-22, and folk like Pukin seem to support that too.

As for the missiles that the plane allegedly cannot even carry, well the UK RAF has selected MBDA (formerly Matra BAe Dynamics) Meteor for the BVRAAM requirement and Raytheon AMRAAM until Meteor enters service. Meteor uses a new air-breathing ramjet motor for increased range and manoeuvrability. AMRAAM will be fitted from 2002 and Meteor around 2010. German, Italian and Spanish Eurofighters will carry the imaging infrared IRIS-T air-to-air missile being developed by BGT of Germany, expected to enter service in 2005. RAF Eurofighters will carry the MBDA Storm Shadow/Scalp EG stand-off cruise missile, which entered operational service on Tornado aircraft in March 2003, and also the MBDA Brimstone anti-armour missile due to enter service in 2004.

Unless the article was printed in 1992 i have to say it is hogwash!

Anyways, let me finish by printing the photograph of the EFA firing an AMRAAM .....even when according to The Sun it cannot even carry a missile let alone fire one. Hey, i'd say the EFA has some serious hypnotic powers to be able to project images like that! Maybe it carries some sort of 'Euro-bluff' weapon that makes the enemy think it is bristling with weaponry! Here is the EFA Typhoon 'pretending' to fire a missile, and by some weird British sorcery (quite likely cast by either Merlin or Harry Potter's second cousin) managing to 'conjure' up a thoroughly realistic illusion that makes people think they are looking at a succesful AMRAAM launch when they are actually just seeing Pixie dust wafting in the wind. And if you look real close you will see some swamp gas billowing in the wind as well. I have to say pretty good for a 'useless' plane that 'cannot even carry missiles.'

[spetznaz]

Hey Poohbah, your expertise is needed. Whatcha think? Thanks.

[Poohbah]

My take on the Typhoon: it should have been cancelled in 1991. It was intended for the Central Europe scenario, and unless Germany charges across the Rhine for the fourth time, it'll be another waste of money.

[Shryke]

In what ways was the F-23 a better fighter than the F-22? I watched that 2 hour NOVA special on that competition, and did not get that impression at all.

[One_American]

Convair B-58 Hustler

The Convair B-58 Hustler was the first supersonic bomber to be put into operational service, entering service with the USAF in March of 1960. Although the B-58 was destined never to fire a shot or drop a bomb in anger, it provided a key component of the Strategic Air Command's deterrent capability during the 1960s. Despite its high performance and sophisticated equipment, the service of the B-58 was destined to be rather brief, the aircraft serving with the Strategic Air Command for only a decade before being consigned to storage. Part of the reason for this rather short service was the B-58's rather high accident rate, but the major factor was the intercontinental ballistic missile, which entered service at the same time as the B-58.

The origin of the B-58 can be traced back to the period just after the end of the Second World War, at the time of the creation of the independent United States Air Force. In May of 1947, Maj. Gen. Curtis E. LeMay, at that time Deputy Chief of Air Staff for Research and Development, wrote a letter to Lt. Gen. Nathan F. Twining, chief of the Air Materiel Command, to request that work begin on a new jet- powered medium bomber that would be ready for service by the late 1950s. The bomber should have a combat radius of 2500 miles, a cruising speed of at least 500 mph, and a gross weight of 170,000 pounds. It was proposed that the development of such an aircraft would follow the development of the B-52.

I remember building a few models of the B-58 when I was a kid. It was very futuristic looking for the time and was the 'Vindicator' in the movie Failsafe.

[VaBthang4]

From what I've learned about it...

...it is another engineering marvel which performs like a dream...that has been and apparently continues to be hamstrung by the Testicle Free Zone Eurowheenie 'We are the World' Weapons development and procurement process.

All them brains and zero commonsense.

Bad combination.

[VaBthang4]

"In what ways was the F-23 a better fighter than the F-22? I watched that 2 hour NOVA special on that competition, and did not get that impression at all."

I would like to know.

[Vinnie]

That honor belongs to the Eurofighter.

I'm pretty sure the British had a plane yrs. ago, the Lightning that was capable of supercruise.

I'm going to research it.