Skip to comments.Pope wants new international order to keep peace
Posted on 01/01/2004 5:55:35 AM PST by HAL9000
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It's certainly obvious you're a Patsy.
Now, it's called VISA, MC, DISCOVER, and ELECTRONIC CURRENCY.
Buchanan's isolationism continues to be discredited by world events.
He's an entertaining television commentator, however.
We Catholics notice that the deform (unlike Luther himself) has developed a very jaundiced view as to Mary, denying doctrines like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of Mary and the perpetual virginity of Mary and, as to the last, engage in legendary feats of YOPIOS gymnastics to deny Mary her due.
Whatever the bona fides of the deformation founders (and there is plenty of reason to question that), there is no question that they have produced a wild cornucopia of heretical offshoots, each containing many who think themselves Peter or cling to the silly notion that their opinions are as good as any other "opinions." Then the resort is ever to the Scriptures as the Word of God (which they most certainly are) but only according to the convenient understanding of the deformed reader. Need rationalizations for birth control (which no Christian church Catholic or deformed allowed 100 years ago). No problem: do-it-yourself interptretation of translated and retranslated passages will do the trick. Divorce? Likewise. You are probably at least as familiar as I am and probably at least as disgusted with those self-interpeters who have decided that God's punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah was because of the residents' lack of hospitality rather than the sexual perversions which many wished to practice on God's angels taking the form of men. YOPIOS leads nowhere. We have nearly two thousand years of learned commentary and explication in the Teaching Magisterium of the one and only Church created by Jesus Christ and not by the wounded ego or id of some renegade monk or the guy who runs the corner gas station or the store-front self-appointed preacher. That commentary was produced by men (and some women like St.Catherine of Siena) ranging from the apostles themselves to those who learned from them directly (i.e., St. Ignatius of Antioch and other authors of the early second century Didache), the early Church Fathers and those who have supplemented their analysis ever since.
You may seek in good faith along with the more aggressive of your reformed brethren to convert adequately catechized Roman Catholics to join you in the wilderness of YOPIOS. As my Irish grandmother often observed: Misery loves company. You cannot advance adequate reasons for Catholics to to join you. There are no such reasons. You have willingly cut yourselves off from the fullness of the Church of Jesus Christ. On those occasions when you are in agreement with the Teaching Magisterium, good for you! When you are not, we may recall that Jesus wept in the Garden of Gethsemane over His knowledge that His flock would not be one flock.
You do not have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved since Christ's flock is not one flock. There is a considerable degree of effrontery and hubris, however, displayed by those who imagine that Christ did all that He did so that Fr. Martin Luther, casting an overly fond glance at Sister Katy, decided to found the Church of Jesus Christ in 1517 by massacring his every vow and causing her to massacre hers. Bear in mind where you got the Bible that Luther shortened as to its Old Testament and vilified as to its New Testament in part (the Epistle of James, Revelation, etc.)
Finally, if you are a conservative in the United States, Catholics are 28% of the population here and climbing in percentage. On the social issues that matter in our society (as opposed to our respective pulpits), Catholics are allied with Southern Baptists (17% of Americans), Missouri Synod Lutherans, Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, Good News Methodists, Westminster Presbyterians, Orthodox Jews, genuine Muslims, Mormons and socially conservative agnostics and atheists (however rare those two categories may be). We Catholics are in full agreement with none of these on doctrine but in 95% agreement with the conservative Protestants.
Why use this website to stir up trouble among conservatives who generally agree on taxes, on foreign and military policy, on abortion, on the nature of marriage, on regulation on small government, on guns, on other matters? All we do is entertain our common enemies.
If you are conservative as to matters political, you aren't going to win without us and we aren't going to win without you. You are probably not going to pope and I can assure you without fear of contradiction that I am not joining the protest against the RCC. There are leftists, atheists and agnostics (not you or other sincere Protestants) who stir up this trouble on here to take advantage of our respective fervors. Those leftists, atheists and agnostics are as wise as doves and as gentle as serpents, if you get my drift. Why reward them? Celebrate the good that you will acknowledge among Catholics as we acknowledge the good to be found among you.
One relief is that, there is no similarity, even superficially between the sage of Wisconsin (reluctant to aggress but prepared ever to defend and nobly so) and the wayward minor cleric of Fort Worth AmChurchianism and all-pupose Kumbaya (how does support of the "rights" of lavender canoodlers, by a deacon no less, jibe with faux support for pre-emptive military action?)
Oh, and, ummm, Good Morning, Deacon!
Canoodling LOL... snort....LOL
Now I'm off again, but that made my day. Adios
Why are those 3000 innocents' lives worth more than the 4000 innocents we murdered ourselves that very same day? Of course, we then repeated that murder of 4000 innocents every day since then.
This is the face of terrorism, true domestic terrorism. It far outstrips the carnage of a handful of Muslim extremists.
Go ahead, say it: Americanism. There. Now you can feel better. Sure, it's a heresy (derived from the Lutheranism "all opinions are equal" heresy you ID'd a post or two above...) and it's not nice to call people heretics.
But now and then it's refreshing to call the spade a spade.
About time you re-posted the full set of lyrics to "Torquemada's Band," for the enlightenment of girl shortstop, BTW.
Then here is the even more formidable problem that, with more than 100 million guns in private hands courtesy of the foresight of the Founding Fathers, they will have to do more than elect Mrs. Antichrist and obtain her formal surrender. That will only be the beginning. They will then have to take the United States region by region, state by state, county by county, town by town, street by street, block by block, house by house and room by room. There were never that many Muslims, militant or otherwise, in Muhammed's dreams much less Muhammed el Rootie Kazooty's, no matter what they may think in Fort Worth.
You're implying ignorance or foolishness on Sinky's part?
Careful, Sink might cry to the mods and get your post pulled and your account suspended ;-)
Very interesting indeed.
Obviously, the poster could not adequately define "infallibility" and I was trying to help my separated brethren in this regard.
Aww yes, that infallibility is a tricky thing. :)
Not really. Some folks tend to confuse "infallibility" (In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals) with "impeccability" (not capable of sinning or liable to sin: free from fault or blame )
That's when it gets tricky ;-)
I never hit the abuse button on you, Brian. You're too entertaining.
Never been a mod. Couldn't post if I was a mod, and I'd rather post.
And I have ZERO pull around here. Ask Jim.
And the thugs on this thread just cannot understand why the Pope might not be impressed by the damnable American capitalist culture of death hypocrites."
Had you forgotten the "sarcasm" tags, or are you merely just another well-placed member of Dennis Kucinich's own cuckoo's nest??
BTW -- Your post qualifies as one of the Top
Ten Five Three imbecilic posts I have seen since 1999. And I say that with ALL due respect....
You are CORRECT in your assessment of "killing and torturing 40 million" (abortion) -- however, "capitalism" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegory of the Pope's being "impressed by the damnable American capitalist culture of death hypocrites."
The Pope is more interested in power -- retaining what power the Vatican holds, and then increasing it some by trying to be all things to ALL peoples (religiously speaking).
And then again, just when does the Catholic Church begin divvying up it's vast fortune and holdings to tend to the sick and the impoverished? Or tending to and sponsoring the spreading of the "Good News", instead of the all too trite and obvious universal mantra of "peace."
The answer's NOT very encouraging.
Huh? Every student of church history knows that auto-da-fe (Portuguese, I believe, for "act of faith") primarily refers to burning at the stake. Toss the Encyclopedia Britannica, please!
...over the weak tea of the deformed trend of the week clubs.
I knew you couldn't get through a post without these little insults. If I were as hypersensitive as some of the folk on this thread, I'd be whining about Protestant-bashing. That's okay though -- I've been known to toss around a snide remark or two as well. Yes, I have called you a bellower but I bet I'm not the only one!
It is good that those who feel that they must reject Christ's own Church...
I haven't rejected Christ's own church at all. What I reject is extra-Biblical teachings that have no foundation in the scriptures or in early church history. It was simony, clergy corruption, and the selling of indulgences which the Reformers rejected, not Martin Luther wanting to marry. In your favor, the worst of these things were cleaned up after Luther's time (and some on this thread will deny that they ever happened) but there still exists the extra-Biblical teachings.
Jesus did not have kind things to say about the Jewish leaders of His day for substituting their own "oral traditions" for scriptures. Read a good history of the early church, such as the works of Alfred Edersheim (Sketches of Jewish Social Life, for, example), and you'll see how frighteningly similar the claims of the Jewish leadership of Jesus' time are to the claims of the Catholic church today. In addition to scripture, they had their own oral tradition supposedly handed down from Moses that they and only they could interpret and enforce. Sound familiar? If Jesus was displeased at the Jewish leaders for their extra-Scriptural traditions and claims of infallibility, then what makes you think that He is pleased with the Catholic church for doing exactly the same thing?
Jesus and His followers constantly appealed to scripture as the ultimate source of God's truth. Note that the phrase, It is written, appears approximately 92 times in the New Testament, depending on the translation. Jesus appealed to scripture as the final authority when He disputed with Satan (Matt. 4:4, 7. 10). He chided the religious leaders with such phrases as have you not read? (Matt. 12:3; 12:5; 19:4; 21:16; 42; 22:31), search the Scriptures (John 5:39), and is it not written in your law? (John 10:34; Luke 10:25). Jesus shows the consequences of failing to follow scripture by saying, You err, not knowing the Scriptures... Not once did He ever tell anyone that they misunderstood traditions. Paul wrote that we are not to go beyond what is written, (1 Cor.4:6) for a very good reason.
Are traditions to be totally rejected then? The answer, you might be surprised to hear, is that they are to be rejected only if they conflict with the Bible. The very word "canon" means a measuring stick. The earliest Church Fathers recognized that scriptures were the final arbiter with questions of theology (I can provide you with tons of quotes if you wish).
How about the private interpretation of scripture? You might be surprised that I reject this to a certain extent, too. Scripture passages have to be interpreted in light of the entire body of scripture or false doctrines will arise -- anything from the Immaculate Conception to the "Name it and Claim it" lunacy. You'll no doubt point out how Peter wrote that No prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation (2 Pt. 1:20) but if you'll break out your Greek commentaries and read the passage as a whole, you'll see that Peter is really saying that prophecies come from God and not from the private impulse of the prophet's mind.
In summary, the Bible was not written so that some secretive Magisterium could interpret it for us. It was written so that all could hear the word of God. John wrote, these things I write to you (1 John.1:4) and these things I have written to you who believe. (1 John.5:13). He didn't mention the Magisterium at all.
...the deform ... has developed a very jaundiced view as to Mary, denying doctrines like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of Mary and the perpetual virginity of Mary and, as to the last, engage in legendary feats of YOPIOS gymnastics to deny Mary her due.
First of all, I would have to say that you're right: Protestants have over-compensated for the Catholic obsession with Mary by paying less attention to her than is due.
Second, I would have to ask you what is Mary's due? She was a Godly woman who was the vehicle for the greatest gift ever given us, but that is no reason to offer her "hyperdulia" or to pray to her. Is there ever an instance in the Bible of someone praying to anyone besides God? No, there isn't. The closest we come is when Saul seeks the advice of the dead Samuel, and God labeled that as a sin.
What about doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the Assumption of Mary? Despite what Father Flanagan might have told you back in CCC, all of these beliefs were not held by the early church. This despite the claim of Trent for "the unanimous consent of the Fathers."
As one example, the Immaculate Conception of Mary (or sinless nature, take your choice) was denied not by just one or two of the church fathers, but by a whole herd of them! I'll be glad to provide you linked citations but, trust me, you won't like what you see. As for the Assumption of Mary, even Ludwig Ott (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 210) admits that belief in this "tradition" didn't appear until nearly the 7th century. I own this book, by the way, and have found it very enlightening.
Once you cut yourself loose from the anchor of scripture, there's no telling where you'll drift.
As my Irish grandmother often observed: Misery loves company. You cannot advance adequate reasons for Catholics to to join you.
Who's miserable? My salvation is assured by what Jesus did once and for all on the cross. I don't have to sit around worrying that I might have some unconfessed sin before I die and have to spend millions of years in Purgatory (another unscriptural invention) or, even worse, lose my salvation altogether.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified (Rom.8:29,30).
Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (Phil.1:6).
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (John 10:27-29).
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor.1:8).
The message of these verses is plain. I have the joy of knowing that I go directly to be with Jesus when I die and that I'm not responsible for maintaining my salvation. God alone is responsible for my salvation and He has promised that no one, not even Satan, can snatch us out of His hand.
I've no doubt of your salvation but you're missing out on some of the joy that God has for you here on earth.
Bear in mind where you got the Bible that Luther shortened as to its Old Testament and vilified as to its New Testament in part (the Epistle of James, Revelation, etc.)
Sorry, but this is very erroneous history.
Celebrate the good that you will acknowledge among Catholics as we acknowledge the good to be found among you.
I do -- you guys were spot on the abortion issue before most Protestants even considered that it could be a problem. We had some catching up to do but I would say that we've done rather well following your model. I've marched with Catholics at abortion "clinics," contributed to Catholic causes, attended many a mass and, oddly enough, even had an investment account with Catholic Life (I think that's what it was called) about 10 years ago.
Catholics seem to often be better connected with family than Protestants (perhaps that's a cultural trait rather than a religious trait though). On the other hand, I doubt that the divorce rate among either Catholics or Protestants differs much from secular America though.
I've cringed at some of the comments made by Protestants on this and other threads (and I trashed Calvin rather seriously) but would argue that, in general, devout Protestants have a much better understanding of the scriptures than Catholics. I don't want to be mean or name names (this is the conciliatory part of my post, after all) but I have to say that, with the exception of sinkspur, the Catholics on this and similar threads have an abysmal knowledge of scripture and of church history. It's just, well, bad. I'll leave it at that.
My hope is that you'll get through the stumbling blocks of bad doctrine that the Catholic church has put in your way and that you'll have a clearer view of Christ himself.
If I'm wrong I'll buy you and CAtholic Family Association a round of drinks in heaven -- after you get out of Purgatory of course. If I'm right then you owe me two beers and an angel feather.
I didn't do it either. I was actually beginning to like you as the evening wore on last night. We disagree on much but you're a sharper tack than most here, both Protestant and Catholic.
Getting back to the subject, the pope's comments were scary. A close read clearly shows that what he wants is a stronger UN or a replacement body to keep the US from defending itself. I would gladly slam Billy Graham if he were foolish enough to have said the same thing.
Though I admire PJII for several things, he is far too fond of Islamic extremists and I don't trust him on this issue.
Thanks Mike, the feeling is mutual. You actually took a unique apologetics tack here, one I hadn't seen played before, regarding infallably defined scriptures. Its rare indeed to see something new in these old debates. Well met. I'll get back to you on that (if I don't get booted first.)
Getting back to the subject, the pope's comments were scary.
Not if you understand his remarks as those of a man 100% committed to Christ and Christ's smallest and most defenseless. Call it naive? That's OK by me. We're all fools for Christ if we put Him before all else. Call it a power grab or attempt to get back at the USA? Only a fool with no understandiong whatsoever of the Pope, or worse yet, a fool with an anti-Catholic agenda, would make such an assinine mistake.
A close read clearly shows that what he wants is a stronger UN or a replacement body to keep the US from defending itself.
A close read reveals neither. A close read reveals exactly that which I just outlined above.
Yes, I'm talking about abortion.
Muslim terrorists killed 3000 on 9/11.
Domestic terrorists killed 4000 every day before 9/11, on 9/11, and since 9/11.
Yet this country obsesses over the 3000 killed on 9/11 with not a word or worry over the several million killed since 9/11 by our own "legal" domestic terrorists in the abortion mills. This is not to mention our export of coercive population control tied to international loans, our export of porn and the homosexual agenda.
Our collective hypocrisy will damn us, not Muslim extremism.
And this fact is not lost on the Pope.
Maybe, just maybe he's a bit nervous with a country murdering 40 million of its own with no remorse being the sole force behind the current world order.
O, me name is Torquemada.
I'm the leader of the band.
Although, we're few in numbers,
We're feared throughout the land.
We tortures Moors and Atheists
And kicks them when they fall,
But when we works on heretics,
We works the best of all.
O, the rack goes "creak",
And the thumbscrews squeak,
And the Whips all flail away.
The Jesuit slams the iron maiden shut,
While I kneels in the corner to pray.
The auto-da-fe is God's chosen way
To purge sin from the land!
Another soul to heaven from Torquemada's and!
Another soul to heaven from Torquemada's Band!
Oh, I forgot to mention, that I have found the same to be true about protestants having in reality an abysmal knowledge of scripture and (unrevised) history. So the feeling here is mutual. We both think that when our oppoenent comes to a different conclusion than our own that their knowledge is faulty.
God will have the last Word on this debate.
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