Immigration: A Better Way

Tech Central Station ^ | 12/01/2003 | Arnold Kling

[hchutch]

I have - he changed a lot of my earlier views on the issue. Pretty much, until the VDARE types can show their motivations are not bigotry, I will treat them as the bigots they apparently are.

Not only do I consider bigotry irrational, I also consider it to be wrong. I do not agree 100% with Mr. Kling's suggestions in this column, but they are far preferable to other options I have seen tossed about on this forum.

[4Freedom]

"..., until the VDARE types show their motivations are not bigotry..."

This is typical of you, Chutch.

You accuse me of bigotry. I respond with further statements of fact. You fail to refute or even address any of the facts.

You instead respond with more purely, emotional race-baiting.

Now, anyone you label "VDARE types" (whatever you mean by that) have to disprove your deliberate lies about them and your distortions of what they said or what your afflicted mind thinks they said.

You don't need your brother the clergyman, you need a shrink. :(

[hchutch]

Again, those whose posts reek of bigotry have NO room to comment on whether my mind is "afflicted" or not.

I only have to note that Jim Robinson banned links to VDARE on this forum. That decision speaks volumes in my book. I read some of the stuff on the site, I've read some of the things people like Sam Francis have said, and I have noted the company they seem to associate with (American Renaissance). I have come to the conclusion that they are folks who tolerate bigotry at best, and at worst, share in at least some of it.

The stuff on that site and who they link to led me to that conclusion, sir. I'm just calling it as I see it. If you really think that disagrement with you on this requires a shrink, then you're a lot more like Yuri Andropov than Ronald Reagan.

[Regulator]

We haven't HAD a guest worker program in 38 years

On the contrary. We have had an ongoing guest worker program for quite some time: the H2A visa. And it has precisely the effect I pointed out, which is, that it actually encourages more illegal immigration in the form of family members crossing illegally to join up with the H2A visa holder wherever they might be.

The implication of your post is that illegal immigration occurs because of a labor shortage in the agricultural labor market, and that if we had a program that legalized such traffic, then the situation would stabilize. This is simply not true, and it has been amply demonstrated that illegal immigration occurs because of the difference in living standards and the availability of taxpayer funded social welfare in this country. Were we to expand the H2A program and rechristen it "Bracero II", with no quota, the numbers of people still trying to cross into the U.S. would vastly outnumber the available Ag jobs.

Illegal immigration from Mexico occurs because of the massive increase in the Mexican population since 1960, the utter and abject failure of Mexico's political and social "institutions", and the rise of court mandated participation of illegal aliens in the social welfare benefits of the United States. No guest worker program will ever solve those core realities.

[traditionalist]

Actually, they aren't really required. It's just much easier if you do use them.

Actually, they are. Federal regulations prohibit the airlines from letting you on a plane without some government-issued ID.

[traditionalist]

I only have to note that Jim Robinson banned links to VDARE on this forum.

I have not seen such a ban on the Free Republic guidelines and policies page.

He once did ask me not to post articles from Vdare, which I do not do. He has not said anything about not putting links to vdare on one's personal profile.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

The implication of your post is that illegal immigration occurs because of a labor shortage in the agricultural labor market, and that if we had a program that legalized such traffic, then the situation would stabilize.

There have been several studies done, including by the CIS that suggest we could reduce labor demands in agriculture dramatically through increased mechanization, which is no secret to anyone.

As long as an endless supply of cheap and compliant workers are handed to farmers on a silver platter there will never be an incentive to modernize. And the illegals will never stop coming, guest worker programs or not.

[traditionalist]

Again, those whose posts reek of bigotry have NO room to comment on whether my mind is "afflicted" or not.

"Bigot"
Definition:
Anyone winning an argument against a leftist or neoconservative.

"Neoconservative":
Definition:
Closet leftist.

[hchutch]

I hope it will be clairfied, then.

[hchutch]

"The civilization that we as whites created in Europe and America could not have developed apart from the genetic endowments of the creating people." — SAMUEL FRANCIS, SPEECH AT THE AMERICAN RENAISSANCE CONFERENCE, MAY 1994

http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/frum031903.asp

The above quote is racist as far as I am concerned.

I again note that VDARE not only runs some of Mr. Francis' work, but they also link to the group whose conference he made those comments at.

At the very least, they tolerate bigotry, and that is NOT acceptable to me. I admit, I am with the neo-conservatives on foreign policy. On most other issues, I lean more toward Dick Armey's way of viewing things than Pat Buchanan's.

This solution is far better than others I have seen. If you don't like it, that's your perogative, but I have no problem with this. I certainly consider it a better alternative than the present situation.

[traditionalist]

"The civilization that we as whites created in Europe and America could not have developed apart from the genetic endowments of the creating people." — SAMUEL FRANCIS, SPEECH AT THE AMERICAN RENAISSANCE CONFERENCE, MAY 1994

How exactly is this statement untrue? Are you seriously denying that genes affect intelligence and creativity?

[traditionalist]

See the above post.

[Poohbah]

Actually, they are. Federal regulations prohibit the airlines from letting you on a plane without some government-issued ID.

Not true. I know people who refuse to produce "their papers" all the time, and they still get on the plane. They go through a bunch of hassle from the TSA drones. But they still are allowed to get aboard. The Lemuel Penn case says that you are NOT required to show "your papers" to board the aircraft; it merely makes boarding much more convenient.

[Poohbah]

How exactly is this statement untrue? Are you seriously denying that genes affect intelligence and creativity?

Affect, yes. Determine? F*** no, goombah. And that's what Sam Francis is arguing.

[traditionalist]

No, he's simply arguing that without their geneticly endowed intelligence and creativity, white people could not have developed Western civilization. He's not denying that there were other factors involved. He's just pointing out that genetic endowment was one necessary factor, which is undeniable.

[hchutch]

Are you seriously saying that some people are inferior based on their genetic makeup?

Genetics are not the defining factor. The defining factor is what one makes of the talents and the life God has given them. I do not see how race or culture can have an effect on that.

[traditionalist]

The Lemuel Penn case says that you are NOT required to show "your papers" to board the aircraft; it merely makes boarding much more convenient.

I've read the case. It says nothing of the sort.

If your friends board without papers, then they are doing so illegally, and the TSA people who let them on are failing to enforce the law.

[traditionalist]

Are you seriously saying that some people are inferior based on their genetic makeup?

No, I'm saying people's genetic makeup is one of many factors that determines people's intelligence, creativity, and talent. Where did this talk of superiority come from?

Genetics are not the defining factor. The defining factor is what one makes of the talents and the life God has given them.

You are in as much denial as the people who denied that the Earth orbits the sun. Genetics, which in part determine what talents you have, are one factor among others. Of course what you do with your talents is important, but you can't do much with talents you don't have.

I do not see how race or culture can have an effect on that.

It is a scientific fact that there are genetic differences between population groups that results in the different groups having different talents.

Now obviously, talents are not everything, but they are important. Without talent, you can't be a worldclass athlete. Without talent, you can't be a virtuoso pianist. Without talent, you can't be a brilliant mathematician or scientist.

Of course, just having talent is not enough. You have to work to develop it. But just the same, talent it is necessary.

But we're getting off topic. Please point out to me exactly where Mr. Francis' statement is wrong.

[Poohbah]

No, he's simply arguing that without their geneticly endowed intelligence and creativity, white people could not have developed Western civilization.

In other words, he's saying DNA equals destiny.