Nazi Leader's Grandson Fined Over Online Quotes

REUTERS ^ | January 24, 2002 02:19 PM ET

[Clemenza]

Europeans are a bit "uptight" when it cames to "hate speech," that is, unless you are Gay or an immigrant. Let's hope that we never have such prohibitions against "hate speech" in our nation (I know they were tried on campus, but were struck down by the courts).

And to think, the Euro-philes condemn immigrants from Asia and Latin America, while asking for more uptight socialists from Europe who pass such stupid laws. Sheesh.

[poppytpee]

Is there an ACLU (Auschwitz(Sp?) Civil Liberty Union) in Germany?

If not, maybe we can send a contingency, A$$hole Civil Liberty Union, from here to Germany.

[muawiyah]

We know pornographic pictures can "stimulate", and some pornographic words can also "stimulate", but any actions that seem to have been taken as a consequence of that stimulation are still within the volition of the observer or reader.

A belief that words can "compel" behavior in and of themselves is akin to a belief in magic. It would appear that the German government continues to believe that Germans are an exceptionally superstitious bunch.

Is there any evidence of such a condition?

[Austin Willard Wright]

The key issue here is freedom of speech. The Germans obviously don't believe in it.

[Austin Willard Wright]

What is your point? Are you endorsing censorship of historical documents? If so, perhaps you should move to Germany. In the U.S. (in theory at least), we still have a first amendment.

[twigs]

Is there any truth to this?

Some people think so. There was a documentary on him recently, probably on the history channel. The reasoning is that Hess had help on the English side. Even though he was quite old, there was fear that he would name names. And there's still enough people around, at least their families, who do not want to be embarrassed by the revelations. The facts about his death had enough oddities that would make anyone question them (I forget the details). There is still question about his identity. His family is certain that the old man who died mysteriously was Hess. Others aren't so sure. If I remember correctly, he was an experienced pilot who made a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes while making the infamous flight into the UK. There's also some mystery about the flight plans filed and the serial number on the plane. If this show airs again, you should watch it. It was fascinating.

[Red Dawn]

Its interesting to see the effects of postwar anti German education firsthand.
Cheers.

[pabianice]

That's a relief! I guess all my Polish and Ukrainian cousins weren't really murdered by the Nazis after all. They must simply have had unlisted phone numbers since 1943.

[catonsville]

"In 1942 a gas chamber was also built in the Dachau concentration camp, but inexplicably, it was not used. It was located within the new crematorium, a larger building whose construction with four ovens became necessary when the first crematorium, which had only one oven, proved inadequate

..........From The Dachau Memorial Site.

In other words the one gas chamber was not used, it was "inefficient" and did not kill Jews fast enough like the ovens.

[Redbob]

"...I may live to see the death of free speech."

Of course you may. I have my own 'domino theory' that says if you can infringe on one Amendment, you can destroy any of them.

[Heyworth]

On the other hand, here was a guy 93 years old, in failing health, who had been locked up for 46 years. The last 25 or so of those years, he had been the only prisoner in the place. You can understand where he might be depressed enough to hang himself. Not to mention that he was, at least partly, nuts. (Witness his behavior at the Nuremburg Trials.)

For an interesting read on Hess in prison, check out Albert Speer's Spandau Diaries. On Speer's last day in prison, about to be released with the last batch of major figures around 1960 or so, he ran into Hess in the yard, looking at a giant pile of coal that had been delivered. Hess said, "So much coal, and after tomorrow, only for me."

Nah, he killed himself and the rest is just wishful thinking by neo-Nazis.

[twigs]

What you say is possible. I don't have an opinion either way b/c I haven't spent the time studing it closely enough. But the circumstances of his death were very troubling.

[malarski]

On the other hand they may be masters of deception, knowing that the verboten fruit attracts. When you talk to young Germans, once they are sure about their own safety, they will tell you that they read "Mein Kampf". The major reason for this verboten act was of course that it was forbidden to them.

[poppytpee]

Just sending ACLU to the Grandson.

[mountaineer]

The prisoners at Dachau were killed by means other than gas chambers, e.g., gunshots. The guides there do not gloss over the fact that thousands of people died there. It's not a matter of revisionist history, and no one claims the gas chambers were built by the Allies. It's just that the Holocaust victims weren't gassed at Dachau, although that technique certainly was used at other camps. FWIW, I've been to Dachau twice, most recently in 1998.

[tpaine]

cmvc3:

"It seems a bit silly to fine him to me since when I visited Dachau I was told by the tour guide that the gas chambers were not ever used."

Having spoken to survivors, I can tell you that they were used about 3 times daily. - 23 posted by rmlew

I was TDY at Dachau for 3 months the winter of 57/58, and at the crematorium many times. At that time, there was no mention of a gas chamber in that building, or at any other, to my knowlege.

Dachau was still an operating army base, and there were no tour guides at the ovens, just a sorta museum w/photos & signs.

The stockade prisoners I guarded had to groom all the cinder walkways around the crematorium buildings. There were still huge piles of ashes out back.

[spectre]

I believe every word you and other posters stated about when and how people were and were not murdered at Dachau. However, the subject of this article - Hess' Grandson - recently DID state that America DID build the facilities to "scare tourists" and was fined.

I find that statement to be incredible but apparently I am the Lone Ranger.

Should he have been fined?

I would have preferred to slap the snot out of him, but that's just me.

[mountaineer]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, what Hess's grandson said was ridiculous, untrue, and baseless. Of course, there's no First Amendment in Germany, which is a shame - without freedom of speech there's no real freedom, and people can be fined or otherwise punished for what they say, no matter how stupid it may be.

[a history buff]

I, not knowing that the gassings only happened in the East, went to D. expecting, and wanting, to see the whole horror of that war. I was surprised to find that the worst that happened there was experimentation on prisoners which sometimes ended in their deaths. This is not to deny that those terrible things happened, but rather to say that if you want to see the supreme brutalities of that demented regime, you'll only see them in the East.

[Red Dawn]

In my mind, there is no doubt that Rudolf Hess was murdered. The Hess family as well as many other prominent people were petitioning the 4 powers who shared control of Spandau for Hess release.
Jewish interests, could not tolerate the thought of Rudolf Hess being out of jail, for fear that he may become the pariah of Neo-Nazi's as well as perhaps sharing insight into Hitler's Naziism.

This would not bode well for the Jewish Entities.
Israel probably put some pressure on their staunchest ally, the US to reslove the issue, which the US promptly did.
Below, are two photo's of the death of Rudolf Hess.
The first shows the ligature marks around his neck, and the second is the crime scene.
Below that is an excerpt from the sworn affidavit of Hess male nurse.

Ligature marks

Murder scene


Excerpt from affidavit of Abdallah Melaouhi, male nurse who cared for Rudolf Hess.

"When I entered the summerhouse, the scene was like a wrestling match had taken place; the entire place was in confusion. The straw tiled mat which covered the floor was in disarray, although only the day before I had cleaned the floor and had left the straw tiled mat carefully arranged in its usual place.
A tall lamp had fallen over, but I clearly remember that the cable attached to the lamp was still connected to the main socket. It was this lamp cable which the authorities later said that Mr Hess had used to hang himself. A round table and Mr Hess's armchair had also been overturned. In summary, none of the furniture or equipment was in its usual place, and there is no question in my mind but that a struggle had taken place in the summerhouse.
The body of Mr Hess was lying on the floor of the summerhouse, apparently lifeless. Near to his body stood two soldiers dressed in US Army uniforms. I had never seen either soldier before. I also saw an American guard, whom I knew as a Mr Tony Jordan. There was no cable anywhere near the body of Mr Hess; as I have said, the only cable was attached to the fallen lamp which was still plugged into the wall."