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To: fortheDeclaration
1. He knew something ahead of time.

NO, He knew SOMEONE ahead of time. And that 'knowing' is not in the sense the author is trying to portray it.

Again, we've been over this before. You never responded to the above-mentioned thread. Even a surface acceptance of the 'foreseen faith as basis of election' argument does not stand up to reason once it's probed.

7 posted on 08/12/2003 8:47:42 AM PDT by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: Frumanchu; fortheDeclaration; drstevej; Wrigley; CARepubGal; RnMomof7
Even a surface acceptance of the 'foreseen faith as basis of election' argument does not stand up to reason once it's probed.

Exactly. The argument falls apart because it reduces to this:

God elected those whom He saw would choose Him.

Therefore, it was their foreseen choice of God that motivated God to choose them.

Hence, it no longer is God's Sovereign Election, but an election based on the choice of the chosen, rather than the Election of the Choser.

This makes God's Election reactionary, rather than pro-active. God's Sovereignty is not reactionary, but pro-active in all things. It is God who is Sovereign, and that absolutely. Nothing happens that is not exactly as He has ordained it. It is He that directs, decrees, and declares, and it is His Creation that obeys. Even the free choices are as He has ordained, and serve to fulfill His Purpose, in all things.

8 posted on 08/13/2003 12:05:52 PM PDT by nobdysfool (Let God be true, and every man a liar...)
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To: Frumanchu
He knew something ahead of time. NO, He knew SOMEONE ahead of time. And that 'knowing' is not in the sense the author is trying to portray it.

Yes it is.

God knew something about someone 2. He assigned a destiny based on that knowledge.

Thus, foreknown in Rom.8 does have to do with someone (whom) but something (faith in Christ) about that person was known before they were foreknown as being saved and being Predestinated to being conformed to the image of Christ.

Although we are nowhere told what is in the foreknowledge of God that determines His choice, the repeated teachings of scripture that man is responsible for accepting or rejecting salvation necessitates our postulating that it is man's reaction to the revelation God has made of Himself that is the basis for election. May we repeat; since mankind is hopelessly dead in trespasses and sins and can do nothing to obtain salvation, God graciously restores to all men sufficent ability to make a choice in the matter of submission to Him.....In His foreknowledge he preceives what each one will do with this restored ability and elects men to salvation in harmony with His knowledge of their choice of Him....To say that God foreknew all things because He had arbitrarily determined all things, is to ignore the distinction between God's efficent and His permissive decrees.....If then God could foresee that sin would enter the universe without efficiently decreeing that it should enter, then He can also foresee how men will act without efficiently decreeing how they shall act. God is not limited in the carrying out of His plans, except as He has limited Himself by the choices of man (Thiessen, Introductory lectures in Systematic Theology, p.345-46)

13 posted on 08/16/2003 2:04:56 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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