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To: fortheDeclaration; nobdysfool; RnMomof7; CCWoody
These Scriptures are key to understanding the mode of God's election because they clearly teach that His election was based on His foreknowledge and will be shown to be in harmony with the whole tenor of Scripture and supported by the early church.

That statement does radical violence to Romans 8:29. Check the verse...it says 'whom' He foreknew, not 'what.' Neither are there any qualifiers after 'foreknew.' The position of election according to foreseen faith is orphaned without this supposed proof-text.

This ground has already been covered.

3 posted on 08/11/2003 7:53:38 PM PDT by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)
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To: Frumanchu
You might be suprised but I agree that foreknowledge doesn't mean (in Romans 8:29) seeing a preseen faith, but those individuals who would believe.

Baptists do not see those verses as dealing with salvation, but with sanctification.

Thus, God foreknew (always knew) those who would believe in Christ and be in him.

It is they who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

4 posted on 08/12/2003 3:41:37 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Frumanchu
This is from the same article.

God in His foreknowledge knows who the elect are. God's election of individuals for salvation is never apart from their union with Christ and is conditioned on God's foreknowledge of who will place faith (non-meritorious) in His Son. 1 Peter 1:1-2 " Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;" Ephesians 1:4-5 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will," 1 Thessalonians 1:4 "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;" 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

5 posted on 08/12/2003 5:02:10 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Frumanchu
You might also be interested in this.

http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/predest.html

v. 29 - for whom he foreknew: here is "proginöskö" again, to indicate that before God took specific steps to include "you" in His plan, he foreknew something. Now there is no reason to try to define predestination from this passage, for it doesn't really explain it. We just have a very interesting order of events. And the fact that all these are verbs which occur in the aorist tense, indicates that they must all be viewed as completed steps in the plan of God for man's salvation.

1. He knew something ahead of time.

2. He assigned a destiny based on that knowledge.

3. He invited and accepted into a "called" status because of that destiny.

4. Because of that "called" status, He declared righteous (justified).

5. And because of that justification, He glorified. (which is the end result of God's salvation plan for the human race, glorified in resurrection body and living with God for all eternity.

It is contended by some that the word foreknow has the same connotation as "determine." But such an assumption not only violates the natural and secular meaning of proginöskö, but also violates the very clear context of both Acts 2:23 and Romans 8:29. That violation being: there is absolutely no logical reason for using both "foreknow" and "predetermine" at Romans8:29 nor for using "foreknowledge" and "predetermined plan" at Acts 2:23 if they are to be viewed as synonymous. Thus as is clearly the implication, they are to be viewed as two different ideas.

Since this distinction between these two words is of the utmost importance, I shall quote here from WORD MEANINGS IN THE NT, by Ralph Earle, page 182.

"The latest and best one-volume Greek-English lexicon of the NT is that by Arndt and Gingrich (1957) For this passage they suggest the translation 'choose beforehand' (p.710). Wuest agrees with this. He argues that in Acts 2:23 'counsel' and 'foreknowledge' (prognösis) mean the same thing. Also n 1 Pet. 1:20, KJV translates proginöskö as 'foreordain.'

Wuest adds: 'The word should also be so translated in Rom. 8.29' (p.144).

However, in 1 Pet. 1:20 the ERV and the ASV have foreknow, although the RSV has 'destined.' Calvin, as might be expected, makes proginöskö here in Rom. 8:29 refer to our adoption (p.227)

But this theological connotation is unsupported by the majority of the best authorities. Lidell and Scott in their monumental Greek-English Lexicon give no such meaning for the term. Abbott-Smith has simply 'know beforehand, foreknow.'

Thayer agrees and interprets 1 Pet. 1:20 as: 'foreknown by God, although not yet made manifest to men' (page 538).

Cremer seems to fall somewhere between. He writes: 'proginöskö, however, essentially includes a self-determining on God's part to this fellowship (Rom. 8:29, whom God had beforehand entered into fellowship with')

Alfred, pioneer of the modern grammatico-historical method of interpretation, notes Calvin's rendering here ('elected, adopted as His sons'). Then he adds: 'But I prefer taking the word in the ordinary sense of foreknew.'

Meyer points out that the Early Church fathers (e.g., Origen, chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome) interpreted the term as signifying foreknowledge rather than fore ordination. He declares that the meaning is not 'to be decided by dogmatic suppositions, but simply by the usage of the language, in accordance with which proginosko never in the NT (not even in Rom. 11:2 and 1 Per. 1:20) means anything else than to know beforehand - - - that in classic usage it ever means anything else, cannot be at all proved. (p.335)

It is being increasingly recognized that one of the most important backgrounds for the use of words in the NT is the LXX (Greek OT) this was the bible of the earliest Christians.

It is in this vein that Sanday and Headlam write: 'The meaning of this phrase must be determined by the biblical use of the word 'know,' which is very marked and clear - - in all these places the word means 'to take note of,' 'to fix the regard upon,' as a preliminary to selection for some especial purpose' (p.217).

Denny takes a similar view. He says: 'Yet we may be sure that proginosko has the pregnant sense that ginosko often has in scripture - - hence we may render, 'those of whom God took knowledge from eternity' (Eph. 1.4) .

The ANT reads: 'For those whom He foreknew--of whom He was aware (in the divine plan).'

Charles Williams makes it a little stronger in his translation: 'on whom He set His heart beforehand.' In a footnote he asserts that this usage is found in the LXX.

Vincent speaks vigorously on the subject. He declares of proginöskö: 'it does not mean foreordain. It signifies prescience, not preelection,' In a footnote he adds: 'this is the simple, common-sense meaning. The attempt to attach to it the sense of preelection, to make it include the divine decree, has grown out of dogmatic considerations in the interest of a rigid predestinarianism. the scope of this work does not admit a discussion of the infinitesimal hair-splitting which has been applied to this passage, and which is as profitless as it is unsatisfactory.

The relation of this term to its context is correctly stated by Vine when he writes: 'The foreknowledge of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels.'

One of the best treatments of this passage is in Godet's commentary on Romans, where he devotes over a page of rather fine print to this one word alone. He writes:

'Some have given to the word foreknow the meaning of elect, choose, destine beforehand - - -Not only is this meaning arbitrary, as being without example in the NT - - - but what is still more decidedly opposed to this meaning is what follows: He also did predestinate.'

After discussion several views held regarding this word, Godet goes on to say (p.325): 'In what respect did God thus foreknow them? - - -there is but one answer: foreknown as sure to fulfill the condition of salvation, viz. faith; so: foreknown as His by faith.'"

In light of this evidence it is most reasonable and consistent with the rest of the Bible to view foreknew and predestined as separate ideas and that foreknowledge comes first.

6 posted on 08/12/2003 5:13:07 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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