Posted on 07/28/2003 1:24:07 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
If God decreed His will, what would it be and
could you slap Him in the face if you didn’t want to
be with Him in all His Glory, what could you do
if you had completely free will...
Yeah, yeah- I am Great
Yeah, yeah- God is Good
Yeah, yeah- yeah (3x)
{chorus}
What if God could be stopped by us?
Any slob, maybe one of us?
Man’s logic rides the shorter bus, without the fare
to get home...
If God had a Face, what would it look like and
would you dare slap it, if slapping meant that
you don’t have to believe if He predestined you to
bow the knee to Jesus and surrender all
to Him and...
{chorus}
Tryin' to make my way home
Back up to Heaven on my own...
No playing music with a song
God can’t make us not be wrong
I wouldn't be impressed by such a "god!"
It seems to me that it is evident from scripture that all men are conceived and born sinners, and rightly under God's Wrath. They cannot do anything but sin, and are incapable of doing anything truly good. They are sinners both by choice and by nature, enslaved to the sin they are born in. Unless God, by His Holy Spirit, regenerates their hearts, they will not turn to God, nor are they even able to do so. They will not seek God, or entertain any notion of seeking Him, their natures being so corrupted that it would never occur to them to seek Him, and they would reject any such idea should it be presented to them.
Therefore, since man will not seek God, God MUST make the first move. Man's will is corrupted as well as his nature. Man cannot have the will necessary to choose God, because it, along with everything else is corrupted, twisted, and bent. God, by His Holy Spirit, unbends, straightens, and cleanses his will (Efficacious Grace), not to FORCE the man to choose God, but to make him ABLE to choose God. When God does that, the man will choose God.
The Arminian position seems to teach that this Grace is given to all men, as though God owed it to them. God owes Grace to no one. That He bestows it on even one person is entirely due to His Mercy, for all are rightly condemned to die for their sins. The Arminain may protest and ask how it is that God can save some and not others. The real question is, why should he save any? That He does is God's Grace, God's Mercy, and God's decision. It is evident that God has not, in fact, saved all, for salvation was only given to a few in the OT, and it is in the NT that more have been saved. It is impertinent in the extreme to accuse God of injustice for doing as He Wills with what is, after all, His own Creation. All men are rightly judged for their sins, so injustice cannot flow from that, in that all deserve to die. If He chooses to rescue some from that fate, how is that unjust, seeing that His Justice dmenads even their deaths? If He chooses to override His Justice by His Mercy shown to a few, it only confirms His Justice, and His Sovereignty over His Creation. Those who have been granted mercy cannot glory in it, for it was not by their power that they were shown mercy. Those who have not been shown mercy cannot claim unfair treatment, for they know they are rightly condemned. Injustice can only be claimed if they were unjustly condemned, or if the mercy granted a few was due to anything other than God's own choice, unaffected and unswayed by any outside consideration.
The flaw in Arminian thought is their insistence on man having a free will unaffected by the Fall of man into sin, something which is logically impossible. When someone says, "God voted for me, Satan voted against me, and I get to cast the deciding vote", they are stating a completely unscriptural idea, for several reasons. First, they elevate Satan to be equal with God, which, while it probably pleases Satan no end, is clearly not possible. Second, they elevate their own will to an equal status with God, which is just as unscriptural as elevating Satan's will to that level. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that man is on an equal footing with God, in his will, or in any other facet of life. It is God who chooses, it is God who saves, it is God who decides. Man does not choose God, God chooses him, enables him to believe, supplies the faith necessary to believe, and saves the man. Man's only part in the whole process is one of reception, of submission, of complete surrender. God does the work, man just receives it. Unless God does that work, man not only cannot receive, he will not receive.
It is all God's doing, unlike the Arminian postion which says man can decide which way to go, to accept or reject God's gift. The Arminian give man the final authority over his fate, which flies in the face of God's Sovereignty, and His makes a mockery of Christ's substitutionary work on the cross on man's behalf.
ROTFLMBO!
NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."NIV Matthew 8:14
14. When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Ah, then we have a wonderful example of the biblical doctrine of predestination at work.
Why, though, do you suppose Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter?
Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. If one "chooses" to "believe or not," one is performing a 'work.' -indeed, the biggest 'work' of all.
You may conclude that belief (faith) is a work, but God declares that it is not a work. He says that it is a gift.Galatians 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.So who ya gonna believe ?
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The grammar here indicates that: the faith is not of yourself, it is God's gift. Works refers back to grace as the means of salvation, showing that it is not works that saves you, but grace operating through faith which God gives you, so that no man can boast or claim he saved himself or did anything to secure his salvation.
If faith were a "work", then it would not be a gift from God, but something we could do ourselves. Biblically, we can do nothing to obtain salvation, we have no qualitites in us that are salvable. It is God's Grace and Mercy shed upon us, and by that Grace and Mercy, through the faith which God Himself gives us, that we are able to believe, receive, and be justified, clothed with the righteousness of Christ. It is all of God, all God's working in us, and we have done, and can do nothing to either gain it, earn it, or deserve it.
Changing his mind is certainly not the same as being "Stopped" by man, as posed in the original question. Everyone who faces God in the Bible crumbles. (Isiah is a great example)
Stop or manipulate God? I don't think so. God does his will, not ours.
Elsie there is a bit of a problem here.
Is God immutable or not? Is God omniscient?
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning
So then hows do we read the text of the reaction of God and Israel?
IF God is omniscient then He knew well what the actions of Israel would be . If He is immutable than He never changed His mind or plan.
From before the foundation of the world God had ordained the Savior would come from the nation of Israel. So God could not be unfaithful to His word or break the covenant he had with the Son.
The scriptures that you quote are as much anthropomorphisms as God having wings or hands are.
God is expressing His emotion in terms that man can understand. After all the Bible is written for man to understand God.
Amen!
So, what is the problem?
Unless you are taking 'foreknowledge' as being the same as Foreordination, which it is not.
That would make the comment on Predestination a bit redundent would it not?
Well, that is the Calvinist position, so even though you do not call yourself a Calvinist, you are stating that it is the correct one.
Nowhere in Scripture does it state that a man is saved by Regeneration, it states rather that he is regenerated by faith.
Now, it is true that man is spiritually dead, which is separation from God, but that does not mean that man cannot be reached by God.
God is able to communicate with unbelievers who respond to His commands (Gen.20) with fear without regenerating them.
Thus, total inablility is not Biblical, it is an excuse for Unconditional election, which makes the man unable to respond since that man is not elected.
Therefore, since man will not seek God, God MUST make the first move.
True, and God has done that with nature and conscience (Psa.19,Rom.1-2)
Man's will is corrupted as well as his nature. Man cannot have the will necessary to choose God, because it, along with everything else is corrupted, twisted, and bent. God, by His Holy Spirit, unbends, straightens, and cleanses his will (Efficacious Grace), not to FORCE the man to choose God, but to make him ABLE to choose God. When God does that, the man will choose God.
Well, that is the Calvinist position ('smoothed' out to make 'irresistable' grace a bit more acceptable.
The point is, that man cannot resist what the Holy Spirit is doing to him, thus by whatever terms you want to use, the real question remains, why not everyman?
The Arminian position seems to teach that this Grace is given to all men, as though God owed it to them.
No, no classical Arminian ever stated that.
Grace is mercy in action, and thus, mercy is just that, undeserved.
However, if one man is going to be shown mercy why not all?
Is not God a God of mercy?
Moreover, how (according to the Calvinists themselves -see Calvin BK 3) did man get in this situation?
God put him in it!
This goes back to unconditional election and God eternal plan to save some and to damn others for no other reason then it would show His glory.
How creating billions of rational creatures and saving a small portion of them, while damning the rest, not giving them any chance to believe, would be glorious to God is unfathonable.
We would call someone like that a madman, not God.
Also God owes Grace to no one. That He bestows it on even one person is entirely due to His Mercy, for all are rightly condemned to die for their sins. The Arminain may protest and ask how it is that God can save some and not others. The real question is, why should he save any? That He does is God's Grace, God's Mercy, and God's decision.
Well, that would be fine except, according to Calvinism, it is God who put man in that position in the first place, so it is a bit unfair to damn them for what they could not help.
Moreover, the point is a mute one since Christ did undo the work of the 1st Adam and has made all men savable (Rom.5:18) if they will believe.
Moreover, God does call upon all men to repent (Acts.17:30)
It is evident that God has not, in fact, saved all, for salvation was only given to a few in the OT, and it is in the NT that more have been saved.
How is the OT salvation any different.
Israel spread its message throughout the world, which was one of her purposes.
God was not without witness in the Old testament as the conversion of Ninevah proves.
It is impertinent in the extreme to accuse God of injustice for doing as He Wills with what is, after all, His own Creation.
It would be if God did not show in Scripture that He wants all men to be saved (see Calvin and Spurgeon, Boettner etc) but not really!
All men are rightly judged for their sins, so injustice cannot flow from that, in that all deserve to die. If He chooses to rescue some from that fate, how is that unjust, seeing that His Justice dmenads even their deaths? If He chooses to override His Justice by His Mercy shown to a few, it only confirms His Justice, and His Sovereignty over His Creation. Those who have been granted mercy cannot glory in it, for it was not by their power that they were shown mercy. Those who have not been shown mercy cannot claim unfair treatment, for they know they are rightly condemned. Injustice can only be claimed if they were unjustly condemned, or if the mercy granted a few was due to anything other than God's own choice, unaffected and unswayed by any outside consideration. The flaw in Arminian thought is their insistence on man having a free will unaffected by the Fall of man into sin, something which is logically impossible.
Find where Arminius or Wesley ever said that man's will was not effected by the Fall.
Did Adam run from God?
Did God seek him?
Did Adam make a decision with that same corrupted will?
The corruption in the will is not seeking God, but God can seek man and find him and then give that same will the chance to accept or reject him.
When someone says, "God voted for me, Satan voted against me, and I get to cast the deciding vote", they are stating a completely unscriptural idea, for several reasons. First, they elevate Satan to be equal with God, which, while it probably pleases Satan no end, is clearly not possible. Second, they elevate their own will to an equal status with God, which is just as unscriptural as elevating Satan's will to that level. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that man is on an equal footing with God, in his will, or in any other facet of life. It is God who chooses, it is God who saves, it is God who decides. Man does not choose God, God chooses him, enables him to believe, supplies the faith necessary to believe, and saves the man. Man's only part in the whole process is one of reception, of submission, of complete surrender. God does the work, man just receives it. Unless God does that work, man not only cannot receive, he will not receive.
What does the 'vote' have to do with it?
God is seeking all men as is Satan and will blind those who reject the Gospel (2Cor.4:4) (odd to blind someone who cannot believe in the first place)
Also, why have Satan around if God is just going to damn everyone He has already decided to in the first place.
Satan is thus a mere pawn as are rational creatures in the hands of this Calvinistic God who has not allowed any choices to go against His sovereign directive will.
In fact, sin did not orginate with Satan but with God since God decreed that Satan would sin (for God's glory).
So sin can be traced back to God, not His rational creatures, a view that makes God both Good and Bad at the same time, like Ying and Yang or the 'Force' of star wars.
That God allowed sin in His universe does not make Him responsible for it, since the responsiblty falls on those who choose to reject God and God honored their decisions by making those decisions part of history.
It is all God's doing, unlike the Arminian postion which says man can decide which way to go, to accept or reject God's gift. The Arminian give man the final authority over his fate, which flies in the face of God's Sovereignty, and His makes a mockery of Christ's substitutionary work on the cross on man's behalf.
It doesn't reject God's sovereignity if God in His Sovereignity decreed that it would be that way.
It is only offensive to the Calvinistic notion of God's sovereignity, not the Biblical one.
With God's subsitutionary work, as you yourself said, all men are savable.
If all men could not be saved, then it is indeed a mockery to say that all men are savable.
Christ died for all men, not just a select few, and if when one goes to hell, they go despite God's will for their lives, not because of it.
One last point, Palmer in his work on the five points of Calvinism does describe Total Depravity as total inability (P.14)
Thus, the real difference in our positions is that you see no problem with a God who despite what He says in scripture, could create for the sole purpose of destroying most of it.
This is espically true of man, who was not created to go to the lake of fire, which was created for Satan and his angels not man (Matt.25)
I think you can call yourself a Calvinist, since you adhere to unconditional election, although you do not seem to accept the Limited Atonement aspect of it.
And who is saying that?
God's plan cannot be stopped since He knows all decisions for and against Him and they have been made part of His Plan.
So God even uses the wrath of man to praise Him.
God is smarter then Calvinists give Him credit for.
Sorry if you cannot understand what the Scripture says.
A work is something you can make a claim on (Rom.4:4), but faith is only accepting what is offered (Rom.4:5)
That ones will is active in the choice does not make it a work by God's definition.
Well, that is the position that L.S.Chafer took and he was rebuked for it by the more strict Calvinists.
The fact is if you are 'yielding' in your Christian walk, you are making a decision for or against God and thus cooperating with His grace (the hated concept in Calvinism)
Now, if a regenerate man can make that decision why cannot God in His omnipotence give the unregenerate man the ablility to make a decision for the Gospel.
God appeals to the unregenerate man with nature and holds him accountable for rejecting Him, even though man did know God (Rom.1:28)
God can communicate with unregenerate man and get that man to obey him, even though he is still unregenerate (Gen.20)
The only reason that man is considered unable to respond to the Gospel is because the Calvinists say that he is not elected to do so.
Then God created the situation in which it is impossible for man to accept what God has already Decreed is impossible.
God sets up man for failure in this system due to unconditional election and then states that man is responsible for that failure!
Total Inability arise from the fact that man is already a sinner, not just a potential sinner. He is born that way!
And, how according to Calvin, did man get that way?
God decreed it that way.
Moreover, Christ dealt with Adams sin and His grace is greater then Adams sin (Rom.5)
He has sinned from his earliest opportunity. It is his nature to sin. He can do nothing but sin. Proverbs says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. "There is none righteous, no not one. None seek after God." "All have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God." It isn't just that man doesn't WANT to seek God, he CANNOT!
So, God seeks him (Psa.19, Rom.1-2,)
He is born in a state of already resisting God's Grace.
And why is man born that way?
It is due to God's unconditional election so that the damned would remain damned.
Thus, no man is damned because he is a sinnner, he is a sinner because he is damned!(not elected)
It's not a decision he makes, it's his natural reaction.
Man is held accountable for rejecting God at the point of nature because he has the knowledge of God but rejects it.
Not all men do so however (Acts.10-11)
That is why only those men are turned over to their own delusions and become totally corrupt.
It is God's Grace that apprehends a man, and causes him to turn and receive God's gift of salvation. It is never man deciding that he will stop resisting Grace, and receive God's gift. God must first enable the man to receive, or he will not, and therefore cannot.
And the reason man cannot is because God will not!
Thus, the sum of Calvinism is putting man is hopeless situation, saving some, damning the rest and then blaming those who are not chosen for being damned in the first place!
Moreover, all your protestations regarding Adams sin are made void by the fact the second Adam undid the condemnation of the first Adam, so that all men are now savable because of the greater grace of the Second Adam.
Only man's rejection of that grace damns him (Jn.16:9).
The one result of Adams sin that has not been dealt with yet is death itself but it will be in the future (1Cor.15)
That brings me to another point. A small one, to be sure, but one that I think is important. A lot of people talk about "accepting Christ", "accepting" God's gift. I think it's more accurate that we receive Christ, we receive God's gift. Acceptance implies an agreement between equals, and an even exchange, a negotiated settlement. Receive implies total submissivenenss on the part of the receiver. The Giver gives, the receiver receives. So it is with God and us. We didn't negotiate with Him, we submitted to Him. We received His offer, as-is. It's a small point, I know, but something I believe the Lord showed me some time ago.
I agree, I believe we should believe on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Cor.15, Acts.16), it is by faith that one is saved, faith in the Atoning work of Christs blood (Rom.3:25).
One must realize that he is a sinner and needs a saviour and that only the Lord Jesus Christ can save you.(Jn.14:6, Acts.4:12).
'Receive' is used once (Jn.1:12) but how one receives the free gift is by faith (Eph.2:8, Rom.5:2)
No, the God of the Bible has decided in His Sovereignty to allow decisions for or against Him, but He will still accomplish His overall plan.
The God of Calvinism makes God the author of sin, thus, both Good and Bad. The Force be with you!
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