Free Grace

Wesley Center Online ^ | 1740 | John Wesley

[John_burchett]

I'd read Calvin's comments, but I don't own them. doh. About what you said of grace, we're agreed that it is, in fact, free and a gift. "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:30 [don't have access to the greek on this one; not a languages scholar] This text [and the verses around it] are replete with "He ___" in the process leading to salvation. Paul quotes Jeremiah [I think] in saying, that the "potter has power over the clay, to do with it as He sees fit", answering objections with "who are you, O man..." to question what God has decided to do with what he has created. He created the life/existence that we have; we "have no right to complain, in view of our sins". As for John 6:44, and John 12:32 -- in the light of the Bible as a whole, it [the Bible] crystal clear that not all men will be saved; Every time Jesus speaks of the judgement he speaks of those on his left, goats, and those who he "knew not". Clearly "all men" can not mean every human being drawn to him savingly. Think of it this way... Jesus call as a large electromagnet. But there's no metal in us by nature... He places it there and thereby makes the universal "drawing" effectual to salvation. I liked your article, and I have high regard for John Wesley, but I think he was at least partly in the wrong on this one. That said, John Calvin was known for his theocratic governing of Geneva, something I think is totally unscriptural, but I believe the 5 points to be completely scriptural. Every great man has his faults, they're just men "of the same nature".

[y2k_free_radical]

But now most METHODISTS reject their EVANGELICAL CARISMATIC roots and in their affluent political correctness are becoming ANGLICIZED

[ahadams2]

Sounds like someone from the very far calvinist end of the Anglican Communion...not exactly where I am, but still acceptable as Anglican as long as they also subscribe to the other standard Anglican requirements (Canon of Scripture, Sacraments, Creeds, Councils, etc, etc).

[ahadams2]

Actually I *have* met some Charismatic Methodists, and their "liberals" (heretics. hate them as much as the Anglican heretics hate us. Oh well so it goes.

[ahadams2]

It's (finally) gotten to more than arguing the split is already occurring and continuing to grow daily - expect to see it out in the open by this fall. The heretics will end up with most of the realestate and endowments but that wont do them a bit of good on judgement day.

[Gamecock]

Hey, it's one of your 39 Articles, number 17 actually. It seems like that you belong to a Calvinist denomination!

but still acceptable as Anglican as long as they also subscribe to the other standard Anglican requirements (Canon of Scripture, Sacraments, Creeds, Councils, etc, etc)

So, I guess the question is, do you subscribe to all the Anglican requirments, such as Article 17?

[ahadams2]

We belong to a denomination which includes calvinists...if you read the 39 Articles closely, you'll also spot a couple that were lifted almost verbatim (well in translation, anyway) from some of Martin Luther's arguments, and some that tend more toward a continuation of early Catholic (as opposed to medieval Catholic) theology. Hey, when our guys plagarize, they plagarize the very best, okay? :-)

More seriously though, one need not be calvinist to be Anglican anymore than one need ascribe to all of catholicism to be Anglican. About the only things you can't be are congregationally oriented (as opposed to heirarchically oriented), anti-sacramental, or anabaptist.

(Note to all 'spike' Anglo-Catholics: some of my best friends are just like you, I've already heard all the arguments, and I'm still an Evangelical Charismatic...)

[RnMomof7]

Well, I don't mean to frighten you, but Wesley was an Anglican.

I do not mean to frighten you but the Anglicans were Calvinists

from the articles of faith at the time of Wesley

Of Free-Will.

The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God. Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good.

XVII. Of Predestination and Election. PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: THEY be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity. As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation. Furthermore, we must receive God's promises In such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in Holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

Articles here

This may be the reason that the church would not give Wesley a pulpit in which to preach was because he taught contrary to their doctrine

[Corin Stormhands]

Rn, my comment about Wesley being an Anglican only pertained to ahadams2' comments about watching the Wesley/Calvin debates as a bystander. Being an Anglican, ahadams2 does indeed have a "dog in the fight" whether or not he/she wishes to participate.

I however, DO NOT wish to participate. Your continued misrepresentation or complete ignorance (your choice) of what Wesley taught is well documented and duly noted by more lurkers than you'd care to shake a stick at.

That said, have a nice 4th.

[fortheDeclaration]

I'd read Calvin's comments, but I don't own them. doh. About what you said of grace, we're agreed that it is, in fact, free and a gift. "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:30 [don't have access to the greek on this one; not a languages scholar] This text [and the verses around it] are replete with "He ___" in the process leading to salvation.

I am curious, why does every Calvinist leave out the verse before it?

The verse preceding it states, who He foreknow(vs.29) (see 1Pet.1:2)

Now both the Arminians and Calvinists take this to be a salvation passage, but non-Calvinist Baptists take it as a progressive sanctification passage, resulting in the believer becoming an adopted son of God and co-heir of Jesus Christ (Rom.8:14-17), with the final stage of glorification becoming the image of Christ (Rom.8:29)

Paul quotes Jeremiah [I think] in saying, that the "potter has power over the clay, to do with it as He sees fit", answering objections with "who are you, O man..." to question what God has decided to do with what he has created. He created the life/existence that we have; we "have no right to complain, in view of our sins".

That would be fine, if (1)all were held equally accountable since all are equally guilty (Rom.3:23)

(2)If God did not say that He wanted all men saved (1Tim.2:4,2Pet.3:9)(see Spurgeon and Calvins comments on these verses),

(3)If He did not say that He died for all men (Heb.2:9,1Jn.2:2)

If He did not say that He was a fair (Gen.18) loving (1Jn.4:8) merciful (Psa.136) God.

Get past that and then you might have a case.

Actually, Rom.9-11 is Parenthetic, speaking of the history of Israel as a nation, not individual salvation.

The quotes that go back to the Old Testament deal with that Nations discipline as a nation, even though they were chosen of God (Rom.9:4), something they were counting on for their protection.

God however, is faithful and will give them all that He has promised them as stated in Rom.11.

As for John 6:44, and John 12:32 -- in the light of the Bible as a whole, it [the Bible] crystal clear that not all men will be saved; Every time Jesus speaks of the judgement he speaks of those on his left, goats, and those who he "knew not". Clearly "all men" can not mean every human being drawn to him savingly. Think of it this way... Jesus call as a large electromagnet. But there's no metal in us by nature... He places it there and thereby makes the universal "drawing" effectual to salvation.

Not all men are going to be saved because God gave man the ability to say no to Him!

In your 'magnet' analogy the question would arise, why didn't God give everyone that large electromagnet so they could be saved.

You have clear scripture that states that He does want all men to be saved, but all are not.

Either God is not telling us the truth in His scripture or the reason why God's will is being rejected is because God has given mankind the ability to do so.

I liked your article, and I have high regard for John Wesley, but I think he was at least partly in the wrong on this one.

No, he got this one right, man can say no to God and does so very consistency, rejecting His will for them.

We Christians do it every time we sin do we not?

That said, John Calvin was known for his theocratic governing of Geneva, something I think is totally unscriptural, but I believe the 5 points to be completely scriptural. Every great man has his faults, they're just men "of the same nature".

Agreed, but the 'five points' (TULIP) are simply the fruit of a misconception of election in eternity, Unconditional election to salvation is nowhere taught in the Bible, it is by faith one is saved, (Rom.5:2,Eph.2:8-9,Rom.10:17), one is not saved first and then given faith.

[John_burchett]

I am curious, why does every Calvinist leave out the verse before it? Speaking of Romans 8:30, back up to 28. Verses 28 and 30 refer to those who are foreknown and predestined as the "called". If, as you contest, every human is "called" by God, and those who remain unsaved are those who reject that call, then why should Paul and other writers refer to *anyone* as "called". It seems like a meaningless adjective in that framework, if it's true of everyone. Found the quote about the "potter", Romans 9:21. v24 seems to be clear that the vessels made for honor are the *only* ones that are called. God prepared those whom he called ahead of time for glory; this would be a perfect place to mention man's participation, but no such mention is made. Also, in v19, when the question is raised, "for who resists His will??", note that Paul does NOT say, "well you can", or anything of the kind. He instead says "who are you, O man, to answer back to God?" While Romans 9 is a parenthetical statement, v24 seems clearly to refer to more than simple old coventant Israel. We do reject God every time we sin, it is our Nature to do so. John 1 states while it is those who received Christ who were declared children of God, their birth is a result of the will of God. Natural birth is not usually up to the will of the child. Spiritual rebirth [you were dead in trepasses and sins, Eph 2:1] is equally God's work. Man is consistently described in the scriptures as spiritually Dead, dead people can't contribute much to anything. Unconditional election to salvation is nowhere taught in the Bible, it is by faith one is saved, (Rom.5:2,Eph.2:8-9,Rom.10:17), one is not saved first and then given faith. You are right, one is given faith, and thereby saved. God gives the faith, which saves us. Period.

[y2k_free_radical]

Do you believe GOD is fair and just?If so,why would he allow DOUBLE PREDESTINATION where some are predestined for HEAVEN and others for HELL-THERE IS LITTLE GRACE,LOVE,FAIRNESS,NOR FREE WILL in such a concept

[y2k_free_radical]

I AM ONE

[y2k_free_radical]

Seems to me THE CONCEPT OF PREDESTINATION could be a mojor step towards THE HERESY OF ANTINOMIALISM

[y2k_free_radical]

Of course since GOD is omniscient,where is FREE WILL,since GOD already knows wheteher one will choose salvation of refuse it

[drstevej]

***Seems to me THE CONCEPT OF PREDESTINATION could be a mojor step towards THE HERESY OF ANTINOMIALISM***

Antinomianism I think is the term you have in mind.

Any believer who uses predestination as an excuse for antinomianism will soon discover that the God who predestines has the ability and the will to discipline His wayward children.

He predestines the end and the means, isn't He wonderful. Awesome!

[John_burchett]

Yes, I do believe God is just and fair. As Paul explains in Romans 5:12ff, God sees humanity through the representation of two men, the first Adam, and Christ ["the second Adam"]. Adam was given a free will, and given a choice-- obey God and live, or disobey God and die. When he disobeyed, he became liable to death. "Death came to all men, because all sinned".

I think one thing lost in the understanding of "free will" is that our will only *started* free in Adam, but when he fell, we fell with him, our nature becoming enslaved to sin ["those who commit sin are slaves to sin"]. Both because of what Adam's representative sin did to his nature that we in turn inherrited, and because of our own personal sins, God is completely just/fair to condemn us ["all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", Romans 3:23]. God's grace is seen in that Christ came to die for Anyone, apart from Christ God could save no one without violating his perfect Justice. Hope this explains things, further questions are always welcome.