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To: CCWoody; DittoJed2; RnMomof7; Wrigley; rdb3; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Frumanchu; xzins
"This [doctrine] is lost in open theism, and more importantly, the open view here is not what the Bible teaches." Boyd argues that Christ paid the price for "possible" future sins and that he "over-paid" for all the sins of the world.

The doctrine that the atonement was "payment" for sin is Calvinist doctrine. There is not one word of Scripture that says sin is payed for. This fact is completely ignored by Cavlinists.

The consequences of sin are never described as a debt, but rather a wage or payment one receives. The wages of sin is death. It is a sentence that must be born, not a payment that can be made to make the sin OK.

The idea that sin can be paid for is the basis of RC indulgences and Calvinist heresy, but is totally unBiblical.

So long as you continue to misunderstand this very basic idea from Scripture, there is no hope you will understand the rest of it.

17 posted on 08/12/2002 6:20:12 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief; drstevej; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
You are an anti-Trinitarian Modalist. Please explain why I should even consider a single word you say concerning the nature of the Atonement.
18 posted on 08/12/2002 6:41:20 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Hank Kerchief
First, the wages of sin is death. Death is a payment which we pay for sinning. Your twisting of the word wages here does not square with Scripture.

For example, in the Old Testament, you had the atoning sacrifices which were meant to compensate for sins committed. God didn't command animals to be killed just for kicks, nor did he send his Son to die just cause he loved us. The sacrifices had a specific purpose and a role which they fulfilled. They atoned for the sin of the individual. The word used in the OT most often is the word Kaphar, which means to cover. The blood of atonement covered sin and allowed for reconciliation of sinful man and God. This theme is seen all the way in the beginning of the Bible with Adam and Eve and even Cain and Abel, where Abel's blood sacrifice was acceptable to God and Cain's was not. In all cases, God was the one to be appeased. Isaiah says that God would see the sacrifice of Christ and would be satisfied.(Isaiah 53:11). His holiness was that which had been offended. It was to God and His holiness that wages had to be paid. Sin had to be paid for in the name of the justness of God. And, the only way that sin could be covered and paid for was by the blood.

Fast forward to the New Testament and Jesus. Again, we see Jesus's death as that which pays the penalty for the sins of man. He took our sins upon Himself, even became sin for us, and paid the debt. His death was a ransom which would free others from bondage. The Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; see also 1 Peter 1:18-19). The word for ransom usually means deliverance from bondage in exchange for the payment of compensation or the offering of a substitute.

Going into the Pauline epistles, it is even more clear. Christ did what the law could not do. His blood paid the payment for sin once for all. Romans 5:8 says, for "what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man. "

Romans 8:32 says "He who did not spare his own Son, but GAVE HIM UP FOR US ALL- how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?"

That Jesus was a substitute, is clear too. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Cor. 5:21)

He bore the penalty for our sin So CHrist was sacrificed once to take awy the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."(Hebrews 9:28)

Hank, your heretical attack here is soundly rebuked by the Word of God. I would suggest you go back and read the Bible. Start with the book of Romans. Then try Hebrews. Both deal heavily with the mechanics of what transpired on the cross and what the death of Christ actually meant. Christ was not someone who died just to show us self-sacrifice or love. Christ came with a purpose in mind, to redeem, ransom, pay the penalty for the sins of, and reconcile to God, sinful man. In His last moments on the cross, His cry "IT IS FINISHED" actually meant something. The price had been paid. God's Holiness and justice were appeased. He paid the penalty for our sins through His death on Calvary and was our Substitute. One needn't have John Calvin's word to see that this is clearly taught in Scripture.
23 posted on 08/12/2002 7:16:27 PM PDT by DittoJed2
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To: Hank Kerchief
So long as you continue to misunderstand this very basic idea from Scripture, there is no hope you will understand the rest of it.

Hank's gettin' down.

How do you understand, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

79 posted on 08/13/2002 5:41:36 AM PDT by xzins
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