Posted on 11/13/2023 9:37:28 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Jiminy; could you explain how those seven churches in Asia got off the rails so fast from the wonderful Catholic leadership they had?
We don't give a rodents posterior!
Look how much time you've wasted posting facts again!!
--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Ha ha! We win!! Hail Mary!!!)
Now YOU'VE made Mary cry!
15 'promises' from whom???
1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me
2. I promise
5. The soul which recommends itself to me
9. I shall
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me
12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me
13.I have obtained
15. Devotion of my Rosary
Versus...
Isaiah 53
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Sorry! Your writing seemed to me more that of a female, so again, sorry for the wrong assumption.
I do not confuse the teachings in error of Popes or Bishops to be de Fide,
But which means you are being the judge of the veracity and authority of what Popes or Bishops teach, but of course, lacking an infallible list of all infallible teachings, and the magisterial level each teaching belongs to, and the level of required assent, let along the full meaning (just ask 10 Catholics what EENS means as regards former Catholics as me), means that the confusion and divisions within your church are unavoidable. Add to that the fact that what one believes is shown by what he/she does (like giving ecclesiastical funerals to Ted Kennedy Catholics) - Ja. 2:18 - then you have more variance.
Much of what Catholics believe and practice today has never been stated infallibly. What do you with papal encyclicals? Try to discern what is taught in them as infallible or not? .
As expressed by a frustrated poster delving into the various magisterial levels and required assent,
rrr1213: Boy. No disrespect intended…and I mean that honestly…but my head spins trying to comprehend the various classifications of Catholic teaching and the respective degrees of certainty attached thereto. I suspect that the average Catholic doesn’t trouble himself with such questions, but as to those who do (and us poor Protestants who are trying to get a grip on Catholic teaching) it sounds like an almost impossible task.
But who was told:
Well, the question pertained to theology. The Catholic faithful don’t need to know any of this stuff to be faithful Catholics, so you are confusing theology with praxis. Praxis is quite simple for faithful Catholics: give your religious assent of intellect and will to Catholic doctrine, whether it is infallible or not. That’s what our Dogmatic Constitution on the Church demands, that’s what the Code of Canon Laws demand, and that is what the Catechism itself demands. Heb 13:17 teaches us to “obey your leaders and submit to them.” This submission is not contingent upon inerrancy or infallibility. - https://forums.catholic.com/t/catechism-infallible/55096/31
And past popes have called for this, as in:
'the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors," "to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff," "of submitting with docility to their judgment," with "no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed... not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ;" and 'not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority, " for "obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces," and not set up "some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them," "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent." (Sources)
Which is contrary to both you and TradCaths making the veracity and authority of what your pastors teach conditional upon their own judgment, which as seen daily here, results in division.
Then you have Eastern Orthodoxy itself which significantly interprets tradition contrary to Rome.
nor do I consider them “TheChurch. The Body of Christ is the Church,
Which as expressed, I concur with, that the only one true church is the body of Christ, only and always consisting 100% of regenerated believers of effectual faith in the risen Lord of all.
Those who hold fast to His teachings and obey His commandments are The Church.
Thus you exclude all those who seek to obey God in the light of the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed from being part of the body of Christ.
Which presumption, in essence, is what Rome asserts as that "the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation." - Pius XII, Humani Generis (27)
Meaning Rome is uniquely the one true church, the one true body of Christ. Which is patently absurd, though there always has been a relative remnant of regenerated souls within her, by the grace of God.
I am sorry you left the Church. I will pray for you that God will guide you on your journey to Him. I will leave it at that. Peace.
Then you must pray for the Bible to changed to include the many teachings that Catholics can only wish were taught therein, and of an office possessing ensured perpetual magisterial veracity whereby she asserts she is and will be infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares. And also presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching on faith and morals.
And thereby asserts and defines another source of wholly God-inspired revelation, interpretative of the former, as she defines it, like as with certain cults.
Which would be akin to Mormonic prayer to affirm their Book of Mormon is the word of God. Which again, is not how the NT church began, which was upon the basis of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, in particular dissent from the historical magisterial stewards and judges of express Divine revelation.
Finally, I appreciate your kind nature, and realize that my response is to the position who take taken to defend in this contentious "kitchen," and is not meant to convey personal antagonism to you. May God grant you “repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25)
True.
YOU can. And whoever "we" is but I am not in that group.
Bottom Line: (once again) YOU and your "We" crowd can judge someone's position all you want but your judgement may or may not be what you see when you are at the Seat of Judgement for yourselves. Being a Catholic doesn't mean you're lost. It just simply doesn't. Are you saved (if so) because you attend some religious institution?
Roman Catholicism has added much to that. They’ve departed from Scripture on many topics. That’s how you can evaluate the legitimacy of an organization and their beliefs: do they square with the Bible.
As an example: Rome allows, and even encourages, the wearing of an idol known as the Scapular. An apparition gave this back in 1215 and promised those wearing it would avoid the hell fire. But there are stipulations on this idol for it to “work”. That’s a sure sign of a false organization that allows that.
. So yes, we can evaluate the legitimacy of a belief system.
Obviously, you are very hard-pressed in your position- no matter how many times you have been corrected.
God doesn’t save religions or institutions; He doesn’t condemn memberships and associations. Instead, he saves individuals based on their faith in His Son - just as you testify.
I know you like to have the last word, so here’s your chance:
So if an individual joins the Mormon cult we can safely say they’re not saved.
Organizations can and should be evaluated based on where their theology is in relation to the Bible.
I can't speak to the INDIVIDUAL'S mindset, but I can post what the LDS Religious ORgAnization teaches:
"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."-- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."-- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"-- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."-- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"-- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion."Brigham Young, October 9, 1859
Intelligence, Etc.
Remarks by President BRIGHAM YOUNG, delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 9, 1859.
Reported by G. D. Watt
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?Brigham Young, --JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8 p. 224God is my “right hand man.”[8]
(Joseph Smith, in a letter to James Arlington Bennett on November 13, 1843, History of the Church, (Deseret Book, 1975), vol. 6, p. 78.)
"God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it."
Joseph Smith at the LDS Conference on April 8, 1844, History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 319-320.
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter- day Saints never ran away from me yet."
Joseph Smith, Sunday, May 26, 1844 History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-9.
"We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.”
— Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48
“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”
Lorenzo Snow, Mormon Prophet and president
"The day will come—and it is not far distant, either—when the name of the Prophet Joseph Smith will be coupled with the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of God, as his representative, as his agent whom he chose, ordained and set apart to lay anew the foundations of the Church of God in the world, which is indeed the Church of Jesus Christ, possessing all the powers of the gospel, all the rites and privileges, the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and every principle necessary to fit and qualify both the living and the dead to inherit eternal life, and to attain to exaltation in the kingdom of God."[5]
Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], p. 134; as quoted in “Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” Ensign, (Dec. 2003): p. 17.
“Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation. . . They are gods.”
(LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).
“We stand in reverence before him [Joseph Smith]. He is the great prophet of this dispensation. He stands at the head of this great and mighty work which is spreading across the earth. He is our prophet, our revelator, our seer, our friend. Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas. God be thanked for the Prophet Joseph”(Gordon B. Hinckley, the fifteenth president of the LDS Church, Ensign article entitled “Joseph Smith: Restorer of Truth,” December 2003)
My brothers and sisters, in this bicentennial year of his birth, I should like to speak of our beloved Prophet Joseph Smith. . . . In the 135th section of the Doctrine and Covenants we read the words of John Taylor concerning the Prophet Joseph: “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.” [D&C 135: 3]
(Thomas S. Monson, counselor to President Gordon B. Hinckley, the semi-annual LDS Conference in Salt Lake City, 2005)
Likewise.....
I think it's amazing (amazingly sad, that is), that you think yourself competent to judge another person's salvation based only off the datapoint that he's NOT a Catholic, which Catholics do ALL the time here on FR.
We are continually told that we must join ourselves to the *one true church* through baptism and eat Jesus to be saved, otherwise, it's off to hell with you, you heretic.
According to official Catholic doctrine and hundreds of years of teaching, all non-Catholics are lost.
I don't see any other "Protestant" religion that makes it a part of their official statement of faith that if you don't join their specific denomination or church you are bound for hell as Catholicism teaches about those outside of it.
Even in the Catechism of the Catholic church is the sub heading of *Outside the Church there is no salvation.*
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
Just for the record, JESUS is the door. The Catholic religion is again trying to usurp Christ in salvation by inserting itself between the individual and Christ.
Yet didn't Vatican II declare Christians to be "separated brethren"?
That's a HUGE change from the denomination that claims they've never changed.
They take both sides of the issue.
Catholics find that very convenient because then no matter what a non-Catholic states about Catholic doctrine, some Catholic somewhere will be able to tell them they are wrong.
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