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Why this evangelical couple became Eastern Orthodox (part 1) - from Southern Baptist to Orthodox
Christian Post ^ | 24 October 2020 | Brandon Showalter

Posted on 10/26/2020 6:10:50 AM PDT by Cronos

Evangelicalism was not enough for Joel and Stephanie Dunn, though they come from several generations of Baptists.

And in desperate pursuit of God, they wound up amid candles, incense, beautifully-painted wooden icons, and Divine Liturgy — in the communion of saints whose lives they now say have provided the medicine for their sin-sick souls.

For the Dunns, things came to a head in 2016 when they realized that their current faith tradition, Southern Baptist, was inadequate. They were received into the Eastern Orthodox Church in 2018. Having been in the church for over a year, they were catechized for about that long in an Antiochan parish in northern California, a parish reportedly "bursting" with new converts from Protestantism.

..."Orthodoxy is not transactional. It's not 'I say a prayer, and now I have a card that gets me out of Hell and gets me into Heaven.' But rather it is being brought into the church life. And in the church life, you can be transformed through the graces that are presented within the spiritual gymnasium that is the church," he said.

...The couple started reading Mathewes-Green's book, Welcome to the Orthodox Church,

"As an evangelical, I always had this mindset, and it may have just been me and not what other people teach, but the idea was that I could remove whatever it was about me and put Jesus in there,” Joel said. “But Orthodoxy flips that around. God doesn't want to remove you from yourself and have Jesus there in place of that; He wants to heal you from all that is wrong with you so you can be who He created you to be.”

Stephanie added, "What really struck me about the Eastern Orthodox Church is in the story of the Good Samaritan. The church is seen as the hospital. Christ is the Good Shepherd. He comes along and picks me up, wounded from sin and my passions and brings me to the hospital for the soul, the church."

...Orthodox Christians understand icons to be windows into Heaven, pictures of the indwelling Christ in people.

The Dunns came to believe, particularly given the heavy emphasis on the Incarnation, that the faith traditions they grew up in were largely Gnostic, that the spiritual realm didn't really ever intersect with reality.

"Orthodoxy is not like that. Every service incorporates all five of your senses. It incorporates your body. You're standing up, sitting down. You're smelling incense. You're singing and hearing bells," Joel said.

During the Divine Liturgy where Eucharist is served, they came to believe they were in this sense of timelessness where they are with the church in Heaven and there have been accounts of seeing angels and Christ come in on the throne.

"The sense of being surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses, the icons do so much to remind us of much of that, that we are surrounded by these people and that we can ask for their intercession," Stephanie said.

...God revealed Himself to us in the form of Christ but the problem is that with all these different denominations, especially within evangelicalism, it mostly rests on Sola Scriptura and lacks tradition, she noted.

"Tradition is what gave us Scripture. Scripture is part of Holy Tradition; it's not the whole of it. That's not all that the Apostles taught. We want to know ‘what else did they teach?’ When Christ revealed Himself to us, He also showed us how He wanted to be worshiped and it looked a lot like Jewish worship."

Today, Joel asks evangelicals to "give Mary a chance."

Asked to expound on what he means by "give her a chance,” he elaborated: "Revere her in a way you haven't before because she provided the Savior."

"And there is a reason that she has been venerated since the beginning of the church and I don't fully understand her role and it's uncomfortable to ask for her intercessions at times, but at the same time, she is the one praying and interceding on behalf of all of us to her Son. And it is through her prayers that most of us come to know Him."

"I grew up my whole just thinking that Mary was just some random chick that just happened to be there at the right time and right place and it's just not so. The history of the church has put her in a place where she should be and if evangelicals could give her a chance, it might open up their world to her."

Stephanie interjected, "Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way."

Joel continued, "And we say in the Liturgy, 'Theotokos (Mother of God) save us’ … If you don't understand that during the Liturgy, we transcend space-time as we know it. We're telling her, ‘Accept what the angel is telling you, accept this child because it is through Him that we shall all be saved.'

"And don't be so literal about everything. Everything is not literal. God didn't set it up that way. We're not computer programs, we're people."

Orthodoxy is daily lived repentance to the glory of God, the Dunns emphasized.

"The most transformative aspect of this whole thing for me has been to see suffering not as something that God — I used to think 'why does God allow this, I did all these things right, this stuff keeps happening, I can't handle it.’ And then you hear of other people who have horrible thing after horrible thing happen,” Stephanie said.

But within Orthodoxy, suffering is seen as a tool, she explained.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS:
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To: Cronos
Mary, the God-bearer, the Theotokos, the mother of God, who was created by her Son and whose Son preceded her was also saved by her son

So you admit Mary wasn't born perfect and she needed a Savior...Like the rest of us...

41 posted on 10/26/2020 8:37:26 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Cronos

If you aren’t going to read what I wrote, or read what I was responding to, what is the point of this conversation?


42 posted on 10/26/2020 8:37:43 AM PDT by Republican Wildcat
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To: Iscool
Again, that is your own (incorrect) opinion - the lady in the article makes it clear that God has entered her soul and she feels a deeper and fuller relationship with Christ.

This is what she says - if you say "God has not entered her soul because I say so" - why would you make a judgement call, when you yourself don't agree with the Trinity

43 posted on 10/26/2020 8:40:04 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Republican Wildcat
I read what you wrote, namely t she is not the source of salvation.

And what you responded to

Today, Joel asks evangelicals to "give Mary a chance." Asked to expound on what he means by "give her a chance,” he elaborated: "Revere her in a way you haven't before because she provided the Savior." "And there is a reason that she has been venerated since the beginning of the church and I don't fully understand her role and it's uncomfortable to ask for her intercessions at times, but at the same time, she is the one praying and interceding on behalf of all of us to her Son. And it is through her prayers that most of us come to know Him." "I grew up my whole just thinking that Mary was just some random chick that just happened to be there at the right time and right place and it's just not so. The history of the church has put her in a place where she should be and if evangelicals could give her a chance, it might open up their world to her." Stephanie interjected, "Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way."
- and in that what you were responding to, there is nowhere said that "she is the source of salvation"
44 posted on 10/26/2020 8:41:59 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos
The Dunns came to believe, particularly given the heavy emphasis on the Incarnation, that the faith traditions they grew up in were largely Gnostic, that the spiritual realm didn't really ever intersect with reality.

So the spiritual realm didn't intersect with their Baptist reality...We can easily conclude then that their spiritual realm doesn't exist with their Orthodox/Catholic reality...That's great...Non spiritual religionists...

45 posted on 10/26/2020 8:42:14 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Cronos

“you say that people who are baptised into the Southern Baptist “do not have a lot of familiarity with scripture”? Isn’t that what SBCs pride themselves on?”

Someone can come forward, make a profession of belief, be baptized....and then not come back. We don’t require someone spend years demonstrating their repentance before baptizing. Nor was that done in the New Testament.

That doesn’t mean everyone truly believes. Some won’t even ATTEND a church again. That is between them and God. But a saving faith is one that results in a changed life.

I’ve never been in a baptist church where the Bible is not preached. They may exist, but I’ve yet to see one. Every sermon. Also Sunday School and often home Bible studies. But again...someone can CLAIM to be a baptist and not have been in a baptist church at all. Or go for a year and decide to turn away.....

” “Consider the sower who went out to sow. 4 As he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seed fell on rocky ground where it didn’t have much soil, and it grew up quickly since the soil wasn’t deep. 6 But when the sun came up, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it. 8 Still other seed fell on good ground and produced fruit: some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times what was sown. 9 Let anyone who has ears[a] listen.”....

...18 “So listen to the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path. 20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 But he has no root and is short-lived. When distress or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the deceitfulness[c] of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does produce fruit and yields: some a hundred, some sixty, some thirty times what was sown.” - Matthew 13


46 posted on 10/26/2020 8:44:44 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Cronos

“Stephanie interjected, “Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way.”

Ummm....God was capable of finding a vessel. He chose Mary, but that doesn’t mean salvation for the world depended on Mary. It depended totally on GOD.


47 posted on 10/26/2020 8:47:16 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Cronos

Seeming to and doing so are too different things. I like Baptists, and I like Orthdoxy. Many flavors, but many sour notes that are un Biblical.

Baptists, all law, no love.
Orthodoxy, gorgeous worship, some of the wrong things.

All are within God’s family in general, but each person stands before God as an individual. Best to see to your personal faith with personal study. A second hand faith is a shake relationship with the One who counts.


48 posted on 10/26/2020 8:47:39 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks; Ad Orientam; alex; antonius; aposiopetic; arielguard; bad company; ...
Orthodox Ping!

Save Thy people, O Lord,
and bless Thine inheritance.
Grant victory to Thy Church over her enemies,
and protect Thy people by Thy Holy Cross!

49 posted on 10/26/2020 8:47:45 AM PDT by lightman (I am a binary Trinitarian. Deal with it!)
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To: Cronos
Yet, as in the article - they were taught and also baptised as adults into the Southern Baptist group and they learnt, believed and prayed in that group.

They obviously didn't believe...

50 posted on 10/26/2020 8:48:03 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
What are you talking about Izzie?

The Catholic and Orthodox churches both have said from the beginning that Mary needed a savior, that her Son is/was her savior. How could she be sinless without a savior? The problem that comes up here is how everyone thinks about the salvific power of God as running along our cosmic timeline. It doesn’t. God exists outside of time, Mary was saved by her Son's sacrifice, her Son, who is God

The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".

Mary, though considered unique among saints, was still created by God, by her Son

In short, Mary needed a savior, like all created things, but she received her salvation through the merits of her Son, before time.

51 posted on 10/26/2020 8:50:48 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Iscool
They stayed in the Baptist group for a long time and were baptised INTO the baptist group - they very, very obviously DID believe

btw, do you believe in the Trinity now? Or still the anti-Trinitarian modalist view?

52 posted on 10/26/2020 8:55:40 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

“ you say that people who are baptised into the Southern Baptist ”

Depends entirely on the local church.

Some are fantastic.


53 posted on 10/26/2020 8:56:42 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I'd rather be anecdotally alive than scientifically dead...)
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To: Cronos

“ The principle in the context of the quote

Again, spiritual truth is spiritually discerned and from your posting, it doesn’t sound like you are saved nor have assurance of salvation.

If true, you are just floundering around.

Best


54 posted on 10/26/2020 8:58:27 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I'd rather be anecdotally alive than scientifically dead...)
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To: Mr Rogers

Stephanie doesn’t say that “salvation depended on her” — you wrote that. She says “it’s not possible without her and He chose to make it that way” - now that is open to interpretation - the “He chose to make it that way” can mean that Stephanie believes that God chose to make salvation through that method through the, let’s call it “Mary method”. Of course God could have chosen another way, but the Mary way was where God gave Mary the free will to chose


55 posted on 10/26/2020 9:09:02 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Spiritual truth is completely lacking in your posts, amPU - if you take pure excerpts out of the chapter context as a mish-mash, jigsaw, faith system, it is no wonder that you argue with a complete Christ-centered belief system that is orthodoxy.

The spiritual truth is spiritually discerned and from your posting, it doesn’t sound like you are saved because you reject Christ’s teachings in favor of verses out of context and relying on you being quick to judge based on no spiritual discernment


56 posted on 10/26/2020 9:11:11 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: JesusIsLord
It's also true that Mary was a sinner in need of a Saviour. "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOUR." -Luke 1:46,47

That's a convention idea that is riddled with varying interpretation. If we think God chose Mary, by happenstance, being just another sinful Jewish girl who would say yes to a baby out of wedlock .... then her need for a Savior is logical. But context of all Marian Scripture needs to be understood...

... And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”....
...“Do not be afraid, Mary, for YOU have found favor with God...
...“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[d] will be called holy, the Son of God. (And ONLY God can create this for Mary)
...
and culminates into the moment Mary begins Christ mission, daringly interceding for the wedding guests by saying - Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

This stumbling block has the same causality as the Christian turned atheist who will tell you that Christ too was a sinner and indeed needed to be Baptized for his sinfulness - as ALL fall short, and are sinners.. yada yada.
Well If that's where the Christian logic takes us. then we need to get off that train now...

57 posted on 10/26/2020 9:25:29 AM PDT by MurphsLaw (“But now if you have a purse, take it.. and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one)
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To: Cronos

Sorry Cronos, but I’m saved and have assurance - and the blessed Spirit indwelling me.

Not really any point in discussing Scripture with you...

I do wish you salvation and every consequent blessing.


58 posted on 10/26/2020 9:32:50 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I'd rather be anecdotally alive than scientifically dead...)
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To: Cronos

This article is really sad, and also ridiculous.

This couple apparently found God’s Word too much for them, and didn’t really want to take it to heart and learn of it because everything they say they didn’t find in evangelicalism is there. For example, this:

“The most transformative aspect of this whole thing for me has been to see suffering not as something that God — I used to think ‘why does God allow this, I did all these things right, this stuff keeps happening, I can’t handle it.’ And then you hear of other people who have horrible thing after horrible thing happen,” Stephanie said.

“But within Orthodoxy, suffering is seen as a tool, she explained.”

It’s very clear in God’s Word that He has purposes for our suffering, IF we have the faith to believe it and don’t “love our lives (here) unto the death” (Revelation 12:11). How many saints suffered in the Bible?! Joseph being sold into slavery and imprisoned on false charges comes to mind immediately, as does JOB, and David, and that’s just in the Old Testament. The New Testament disciples us on suffering for the Lord’s sake as a major lesson. And oftentimes, the suffering of the saints isn’t even “natural” suffering, but suffering for spiritual reasons, strictly for one’s faith in God and witness for Christ, as in the death of Stephen.

“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” Romans 8:18

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28

“In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.” 1 Thessalonians 5:18

“And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.” Acts 5:40-41

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

And here are ONE HUNDRED verses on suffering from the Bible:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/suffering

Some Christian churches have had the Gospel all along, but in the pre-printing press era, when illiteracy was widespread, their leaders moved away from actually mentoring their flocks on God’s Word (teaching it to them and having them memorize it, which would have been entirely possible).


59 posted on 10/26/2020 9:44:18 AM PDT by Faith Presses On (Above all, politics should serve the Great Commission, "preparing the way for the Lord.")
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To: Cronos

Jesus tells the parable of different soils, and the Bible also talks about moving on from spiritual milk to meat. And as Paul said, too, there is an upward call from God that we must respond to.


60 posted on 10/26/2020 9:46:26 AM PDT by Faith Presses On (Above all, politics should serve the Great Commission, "preparing the way for the Lord.")
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