Posted on 11/19/2019 9:06:56 AM PST by Salvation
Never in Scripture, anywhere.
Book of Maccabbees 2 which you do not have in your Bible.
Why doesn't the pope just declare them forgiven and then let them out?
Seems kinda cruel to let them continue to suffer like that.
They in turn will pray for you and intercede for you when they get to heaven. Never stop praying for your loved ones who have died.
Once your loved ones have died their eternal destination has already been determined. No amount of prayer can help them at that point.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:27-28 NASB
Do you consider yourself a fine example of Catholics?
Have a chapter and verse....not finding purgatory.
.............
Unfortunately, Maccabees, chapter 2 does not teach the Roman doctrine of purgatory.
Here is an explanation:
"Roman Catholics will often claim that purgatory is affirmed even before the time of the New Testament in the Jewish Apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees. Contrary to Roman Catholic dogma, the Apocrypha should not be considered authentic Scripture, so finding the doctrine of purgatory there would not grant it biblical authority. If the claim that 2 Maccabees teaches purgatory were correct, however, this would at least demonstrate the idea of Purgatory to be an ancient tradition rather than a late innovation developed centuries after the time of the New Testament, as it otherwise appears to be. Unfortunately for the Roman Catholic apologist, however, the passage in 2 Maccabees doesn't say anything about purgatory, nor does it in any way imply the Roman Catholic dogma.In the passage, the Jewish leader Judas Maccabeus leads his army into battle. God grants them victory, though some of Judas' men were struck down by the enemy. When during the preparation for burial, they discover that each of the dead was secretly an idolater who was wearing amulets of devotion to pagan gods under their clothes:
"Then under the tunic of each one of the dead, they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out," (2 Maccabees 12:40-42a).
The relevance of this passage to our discussion begins here, as the Jews pray to God to blot out the sins of men who have already died. To someone reading with Roman Catholic assumptions already in place, the mention of people praying about the sins of the unrepentant dead can only be a reference to the doctrine of purgatory. Already, however, we have details here that do not fit the Roman Catholic doctrine. Purgatory is only for those who have died in God's grace. If someone dies while guilty of a mortal sin for which they have made no absolution, they die outside of God's grace and under His wrath. They will not receive purification in purgatory. They will be justly punished in hell. Roman Catholic teaching regards willful idolatry committed in full knowledge of God's moral law to be a mortal sin. The passage is clear that these were not ignorant pagans. They were Jews who knew that what they were doing was forbidden by God's law. These men died in unrepentant, willful idolatry and active devotion to false gods. Therefore, on Roman Catholic teaching, they died outside of God's grace. That they were under God's wrath is further exemplified by the repeated emphasis on the death of these men as a direct judgment from God on them for their sin.
More at this link: https://carm.org/catholic/purgatory-and-2-maccabees-12-39-45
We are left with a Roman teaching, of pagan origin, that does not appear in Scripture.
The ancient version of the modern day brown scapular.
“ each of the dead was secretly an idolater who was wearing amulets of devotion to pagan gods under their clothes:”
.....
Yes, but our great Catholic Church has sanctified the use of these pagan medals, amulets, skapulars, etc.
Also, the worship of statues, etc.
We can do this because we are in charge of everything.
`
Oh boy.
The idea of a purgatory to cleanse the soul of departed Catholics needs refutation since it is anathema to what the Gospel of Grace is all about.
Jesus did not die on that cruel Cross to redeem the flesh of sinners. The concept of a 'cleansing purgatory' is all about cleansing the soul part of the flesh. But that part of the flesh is destined for discarding when GOD gives believers a new soul and body in which will dwell the eternal born again spirit which has God's Holy Spirit seal upon it when we are born again.
Paul writes that we war against the world, the flesh, and the devil. The flesh is all about sinning, as Paul also wrote, that if he sins it is the flesh of sin which dwells within him, in his soul, not his spirit.
When we die, the fleshly soul ends it's tyranny over our body and behavior. The dead do not sin, but without the Life of God sealed in that spirit of the alive and dead, the being who is that spirit is in a state of deadness and cannot be redeemed thereafter. That dead spirit does not go to purgatory to be made clean else Jesus died on that Cross for nothing that could not be achieved by suffering in an imagined purgatory for each of us.
Jesus died for us so our dead spirit can have His Life in it, a Life that is eternal, not limited in time. The state of deadness is not nothingness, for the spirit is going to be around for eternity, either as Born again family members or a sequestered sin-laden exiles from God.
At new birth the spirit is made alive with ETERNAL LIFE at that moment of new birth. But the flesh soul is still around, being tempted and giving in to the 'fun' of sin. That's why we are told to confess our sins, because the taint of sin blurs the glorious new Holy Spirit SEED within our spirit, so it must be cleansed away from the connection between soul and spirit, so the New Life can shine through as a witness to having been born again.
Would God send His Holy Spirit through purgatory? No reason to, according to Catholic dogma, for the Holy Spirit has no sin to purge.
In more than one place Paul instructs us that it is God Who is in the believer, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Paul even gives us a huge clue as to what this means int he spirit of the believer when he, Paul, tells us that the members of God's family, as presently spiritually in the family, cannot sin for HIS, God's, Seed remains (in us abides, in the Greek) within us while we are alive, in our spirit.
The born again spirit cannot sin for it is God's Holy Spirit SEED that remains within us until He,God, gives us a new soul and body and takes us back to the Father's House, as Jesus promised in John 14. For the born again sin of the flesh is like mud splattered on the Crystal surface of the eternally alive spirit. The confession is God's means to wipe away the mud so the beauty of His Life in us is displayed through a new behavior directed by the new Life in our spirit.
Consider that Paul taught his converts to Christ that in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, alive members of God family would be transformed into beings with bodies and souls fit for eternal living, physically. But before we are transformed, the dead in body and soul who are in the family by their born again spirit will be given new bodies and new behavior mechanisms such that they are immune to sinning!
Does this mean that those transformed in an instant will not go for cleansing in the 'purgatory'? Yes, for there is no purgatory. The Saved in Christ have a new eternally alive spirit that has been cleanse through the blood of Christ. Such a sinless spirit has no need for further cleansing in some imagined purgatory.
For the born again, to be absent from the body (and the fleshly behavior mechanism called soul) is to be present with the Lord. And those asleep in Christ GOD will bring with Him to receive new bodies and souls fit for Heaven and living in the shekinah glory of the Righteous God, forever.
Go ahead and claim that’s a parody, Adam Schiff.
Do you consider yourself a fine example of anti-Catholics?
Thanks for asking, but you fail. I don’t hate Catholics. I wouldn’t spend time trying to evangelize Catholics if I was anti-Catholic. I am certainly anti Catholicism. Now you try answering.
It’s no parody.
Nor do I care what prots and extreme Catholics think.
Next, you’ll criticize our pope, chosen by a vote of our Cardinals, and confirmed by smoke.
First or Second Maccabees. Other chapters. The most historical book in the whole Bible.
I was coming from Second Maccabees.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Yet Maccabees 2 doesn’t teach the Roman doctrine of purgatory.
Don’t you have anything??
Please post the verses where the word *purgatory* is used.
Thank you.
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” II Maccabees 12
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