Jesus is the Life Preserver. Mary is the Rope He Chose To Reel Us In.

The Most Ancient Tradition | 06-16-2019 | Charles O'Connell

[ealgeone]

Along with the believers. And Scripture records not a word from Mary.

[daniel1212]

“The Jews don’t accept the NT as inspired.” And apparently Isaiah 53.

Yes, however, as said, unlike the many for Christ, the NT nowhere interprets the claimed typologies of Mary as being just that.

And as in re. to prophecies and types as Is. 53 provides, in the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the New Testament church believed you never see anything like,

And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. (Acts 8:27-28)

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (Acts 8:29-34)

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (Acts 8:35)

But if deacon Philip was a Catholic, we could expect him to begin at some scripture and preached unto him Mary.

[Cyclops08]

Mary is just a human being who chose to lovingly trust and obey God. There is nothing otherwise special about her. IF there was, God would have said so in the Bible.

[Cyclops08]

Great, Mary is the Bride of the Spirit. So they work together...

“The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!”

---

Wrong. The Bride is the church.

[daniel1212]

Great, Mary is the Bride of the Spirit. So they work together... "The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come!"

Wrong. Again. The only bride of Christ in Scripture is the church, the corporate body of Christ (of which even a few rare Caths of simple penitent faith are part of):

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Ephesians 5:30-32)

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:2)

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (Revelation 21:9-10) (In contrast to the great whore that sitteth upon many waters, the "city" of Babylon" Rv. 17:1.)

[daniel1212]

Having the mind of Christ means sharing the plan, purpose, and perspective of Christ, who fulfilled the commandments and always honored His Father and His mother.

Indeed, in accordance to what is written, and which admonishes us not to think of mortals beyond what is written, and which Catholics disregard.

And rather than the so-called "veneration of Mary being in accordance with Scripture, there is a world of difference btwn reverential respect and what one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining, kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation can constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

[daniel1212]

Sorry about the lack of html formatting, so lets see that again with it.

And no, we're not talking about some dingbat goddess.

Actually, that unscriptural hyper-exaltation of the Mary of Catholicism is what drives their sinful abuse of Scripture, thinking of mortals (far far) "above that which is written." (1 Cor. 4:6) .

Note that many Catholic Marian attributions much parallel even that of Christ:

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

• As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;

• As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;

• As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);

• As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."

• As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;

• As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;

• As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;

• As the Holy Spirit directs believers to be "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) in whom believes are accounted a holy nation, (1 Pt. 2:9) so Catholicism teaches that believers are to "turn their eyes to Mary" in whom "the Church is already the 'all-holy." (CCC 829)

• As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;

• As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”

• As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);

• As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."

• As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;

• As no one can obtain mercy, be saved/redeemed or be delivered and know the Father but through the Son, so the same is said of Mary;

• As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.

• As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);

• As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;

• As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

• As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.

• As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."

• As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.

• As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.

• And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

• As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”

• As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;

• as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;

• as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;

• as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.

• As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);

• And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

[Zuriel]

**Plus Mary was with the disciples in the upper room that very first Pentecost.**

There was about 120 in the upper room, including Mary and the 11 (and at that time they added a replacement for Judas, chosen out of those present). They were there to receive the Spirit of God. For they were ordered by the Lord to tarry for promise of the Father.

[daniel1212]

Catholic Mary worship?

Yes, as in the Mary of Catholicism versus that which is written. See above posts and tell me if you do not see any of that in the light of how we see worship described in Scripture.

The response will likely be that not all that I documented is "official" Catholic teaching, but besides the fact that FR Catholics disagree among themselves on what "official" Catholic teaching all includes, my sources are by esteemed RCs whose adulation of Mary is promoted and remains uncensored.

[MayflowerMadam]

“As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;”
“As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;”
“As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;”

Wow. They actually believe that?

[Zuriel]

Yeah, she had surely known that you don’t say no to God where he calls.

Moses, and more stubbornly, Jonah, both tried to avoid the call of God.

[hiredhand]

Because,as Our Lord’s mother,she was his very first disciple.

Ya think? Why not Joseph? Where in all of scripture would such a claim be validated?

[ealgeone]

Merely the tip of the iceberg on this issue.

[daniel1212]

“As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;” “As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;” “As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;” Wow. They actually believe that?

Certainly, and they have to as faithful RCs. And more, and with the assurance of the veracity of such teachings resting upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).

Thus as asserted by the founder of sophist "Catholic Answers,"

"...the mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true," Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; Catholicism and Fundamentalism San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988, p. 275)

And Ratzinger stated,

Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative. What here became evident was the one-sidedness, not only of the historical, but of the historicist method in theology. “Tradition” was identified with what could be proved on the basis of texts. Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg…had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared.

How then can Rome rationalize making belief in the Assumption a binding doctrine? Why, by claiming Rome can "remember" what history forgot:"

But if you conceive of “tradition” as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of previously and was already handed down in the original Word,” J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), 58-59.

But which is mere sophistry, for it changes an event that has no historical warrant for belief into a teaching that too hard to understand, but which is not the case here, and in fact Caths point to the record of bodily assumptions in Scripture as understandable support for the alleged assumption of Mary.

More, by God's grace.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Of course. My point is, they DO accept the OT as inspired, and yet they don't see types and prophecies about the Jesus Christ, Mary, the Twelve Apostles, the gentile Church, the definite reality of Heaven and Hell, Baptism, the Sacrament of the Lord's Body and Blood, or any of that in their on prophets.

You say that God does not identify much of anything in Scripture as a type. On the contrary, Jesus said to the disciples on the road to Emmaus,

"How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

So He unfold to them what was said in the Law and the Prophets --- all their Scriptures.

Elsewhere, He says that the Holy Spirit will bring ALL these things to mind.

That's not a little, that's a LOT.

We have His promise that the Church will be enlightened by The Holy Spirit about all these things.

And that's not "opinion," it's knowledge --- from the Holy Spirit --- according to the promise of Christ.

That doesn't prove anything to a non-Messianic Jew, but it should be a sure indication to us.

[Iscool]

Jesus is the Life Preserver. Mary is the Rope He Chose To Reel Us In.

The title is a flat out lie...Millions came to Jesus before the Marian fallacy showed up...

There is so much scripture refuting this absurd idea one should be embarrassed to even think of such nonsense...

So what, you get ahold of Jesus, Mary reels you in...To where??? And if you don't let Mary reel you in, it's just you and Jesus drifting about the sea of despair...What wacko wrote this and what wacko believes it???

On the cross, he gave his mother to John to take in his home, but when you take your master's mother, she takes care of you.

What a ridiculous statement...The mother of Jesus was sent to John because she obviously couldn't take care of herself, let alone John...

Jesus' mother forms the few of the elect who will resist being fooled by the great apostasy. Those who will not avail themselves of the lifeline of Mary, will be lost.

A few??? Not all Catholics??? So how many Catholics will end up in hell???

[SkyDancer]

I remember telling a Catholic friend of mine that Mary was just a means for the Word to enter our realm; she was the door by which the Word entered and became flesh. It’s like you worship the door a relative who’ve you’ve not seen entered into the house.

[Trailerpark Badass]

You came up with that all by yourself. Impressive.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I will have to disagree with your premise.

That Christ opened the Scriptures to Jews to explain how they foretold Him, does not mean this is a blank check for the Hebrew Scriptures to mean anything you wish them to mean.

We are back to my earlier comment:

You see Mary appearing on a tree trunk. Like so...

You claim it is Mary because you can see her.

But of course, no one on earth knows what mary looks like... and it is simply a tree.

But you are certain.

It is worse with the Scripture.

You take one verse using this method, make it a blank check to mean anything you wish, then you proclaim Mary is everywhere!

Even worse, you then take the blank check, sprinkle on some Holy Spirit dust, and grant the former church of Rome the ability to proclaim what it wants things to mean. You bow to the authority. You marvel at what it declares.

Meanwhile, it is a tree.

But you believe!! It looks so much like Mary.

The typology you proclaim, which is never verified in the Scriptures, is just wishegesis.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Catholic Mary worship?

........................

Mariolatry.