Posted on 03/28/2019 2:51:44 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
“What tribulation is in the Tribulation is from GOD, not ‘the world’.”
These things are merely a regurgitation of pre-trib thought, but not evidence. Again, I’m not saying this makes them wrong. I’ve been taught pre-trib all of my life in every church I’ve been a part of, including my current one. I respect that godly Bible teachers have espoused this view. I’m quite familiar with its tenets. It has an internal logical consistency. But it is still wrong and is based on a system made by John Darby rather than the Bible.
No one has ever exegetically demonstrated a pre-trib rapture from the Bible. It is all anecdotal and proof texts (like the way cults nit-pick the Bible to support their erroneous views). Historically, all of the early church fathers taught we will face antichrist. The New Testament warns of the coming of the antichrist. I don’t mean to be harsh in my criticism of pre-trib, but it has lulled the western church to sleep with regards to the rapture. It’s the kind of doctrine that sets well with an easy-believism, Laodicean, western church that has forgotten that suffering, persecution, and tribulation are normative for the church.
“BTW, in the Greek ‘where the word ‘mansions’ is used the Greek refers to rooms, like the rooms of an Inn, not permanent mansion.”
Hebrews 12:27
Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
The Lord is not preparing a temporary dwelling place. The purpose of His preparation of a place for us, in His Father’s house (again, wedding analogy) is for us to be with Him. At the rapture the church will go to be with Him. She will return with Him to the earth, and remain with Him, reigning with Him on the earth.
But there is no indication that this will be during the entirety of Daniel’s seventieth week. It is simply argued from anecdotal evidence that because the church is distinct from Israel (though Paul and the other apostles were Israelites) then we will not be here when God continues His work in Israel for the final seven years. But when does the “time of the Gentiles” begin and end? It began in 70 A.D. decades after the church began. The temple was still standing when the church began. Temple ceremonies were still going on. And Jewish believers, including the apostles, continued to participate in the temple activities until 70 A.D.
When will “all Israel be saved” as Romans 11 describes? At the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? Certainly not. Christ said they will receive one who comes in his own name (i.e. antichrist). When will the veil be lifted from the eyes of Israel as a nation? When will the purpose of Daniel’s seventieth week be fulfilled? At its inception or completion?
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
When will Israel “look on Him whom they have pierced” AND fulfill the second part of that prophecy by mourning and completing the national repentance ?
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
If Daniel’s seventieth week begins with Israel and the world falling for the deception of antichrist, as he rises to power, where do all of those persecuted for Jesus and His word come from?
Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Revelation 6:9
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Revelation 7:9, 14b
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
How are there innumerable followers of Christ in the middle of “strong delusion” and the Holy Spirit and church removed? With the church raptured out, who evangelizes and converts these multitudes to become followers of Christ? How can they hear without a preacher? If the Holy Spirit was poured out with signs and wonders and fire and smoke and dreams, visions, and prophecies BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and the world rejected this, how are multitudes converted DURING the Day of the Lord?
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Keep in mind, this is NOT a proof text. I’m NOT taking this out of context to serve my own purposes. This passage is in the middle of Paul’s discussion of Israel’s national repentance, her present blindness, and his exposition of Joel’s prophecy concerning the time when “whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved” which is the same passage that discusses the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the subsequent Day of the Lord.
“We will be in Heaven with The Lord during the seven years God is pouring out His wrath in increasing degrees upon the earth, persuading the Jews of Messiah’s soon arrival upon the Earth WITH we who were caught up along.”
The wrath of God is what is contained in the scroll which only the Lamb is worthy to open. The seven seals are NOT the opening of the scroll. They must be broken before the scroll can be opened and God’s judgment and cleansing of the earth by fire can commence.
The seven seals correspond exactly to the seven signs of the Olivet discourse. The “tribulation” in the verse above (i.e. Matthew 24:9) coincides with just before the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. We know this because the abomination of desolation is part of the events in this discourse (in verses 15-24). What follows is the greatest tribulation of all. Yet the Lord tells His disciples the “End” is not yet? Well, when is this time called the End that they asked about? How does Jesus describe His return immediately AFTER the days of tribulation, in which saints are gathered by angels, yet there is no description of all of the many judgements of the seven trumpets and seven seals that happen before Jesus returns to set up His kingdom?
Rather than relying on the pre-trib paradigm, it is best to stick to the sequence of events in the actual scriptures. When we compare the passages we find a sequence that does not fit into the pre-trib paradigm. And, indeed, we should not try to force it to do so. The Biblical sequence is that the Great Tribulation begins in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. This is when Michael, the restrainer, kicks Satan out of Heaven, and Satan comes to earth with great wrath. This is when antichrist begins his reign of terror with the abomination of desolation. But this great tribulation is “cut short” by a divine, cosmic intervention—a cataclysmic celestial event that darkens sun and moon and forces earth-dwellers to take refuge underground. This disrupts their persecution of Christians, the great tribulation ends, Christ returns for His bride which is taken out, and then the wrath of God contained in seven trumpets and seven bowls is poured out in flaming fire on the earth. After this, Christ returns and sets up His kingdom on the earth which He restores. His bride comes with Him to share in His reign.
“It just occurred to me, could ‘The Day of the Lord’ begin with the referencing of the ‘mid point’ of the 7yr tribulation period and the abomination of desolation? Could this also be the division point between the two Dispensations?”
The mid-point is certainly significant divider of the timeline of prophetic events. Here are things that happen at that time:
> Michael, the arch-angel and guardian of Israel, stands up (Daniel 12:1)
> A war in Heaven results in Michael kicking Satan out of Heaven (Rev. 12:7-9)
> The two witnesses are killed (assuming their prophecies are during the first half of Daniel’s seventieth week)(Rev. 11:3, 7)
> Antichrist breaks his seven-year treaty (i.e. “covenant”) with Israel (Daniel 9:27)
> Antichrist enters the third temple and sets up his throne, proclaiming himself God, and demands that the world worship him (2 Thes. 2:3-4)
> The Great Tribulation begins (Mt. 24:15-22)
But another significant event that helps clarify the timeline is the cataclysmic celestial event that darkens the sun and moon (apparently simultaneously).
Joel 2:30-32a
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Revelation 6:12-17
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
This sign marks the completion of the Great Tribulation, the imminent return of Christ and the arrival of the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord has several names:
The Day of the Lord
The Day of God
The Day of Christ
The Day of Wrath
The End
(And a few other variations)
The Day of the Lord is NOT the same as Daniel’s seventieth week. For Christians it is a day of salvation and rescue. For unbelievers it is a day of wrath and fiery judgment.
I find these discussions beneficial even though there is disagreement on various concepts of interpretation. Not to suggest any one viewpoint is right or wrong, but rather beneficial in our understanding and learning. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth. If all discussions were merely an echo chamber, what benefit would it be? All challenges produce a furtherance of study.
Quote~ “What tribulation is in the Tribulation is from GOD, not ‘the world’.”
I believe the Great Tribulation is God’s judgement. In this instance it is to bring God’s chosen, (the Jews) to repentance and ultimately, the time of Jacobs woes is to bring Israel to accept and receive Jesus as Savior/Messiah.
Quote~ “ Historically, all of the early church fathers taught we will face antichrist. The New Testament warns of the coming of the antichrist.”
At the same time though, we must conclude the spirit of the antichrist has been present and in operation since the early formation of the church.
1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Quote~ “ I don’t mean to be harsh in my criticism of pre-trib, but it has lulled the western church to sleep with regards to the rapture. It’s the kind of doctrine that sets well with an easy-believism, Laodicean, western church that has forgotten that suffering, persecution, and tribulation are normative for the church.”
I agree that there is a great falling away from truth in these last days, which Paul referred to as apostasy. It was affirmed to occur. But I can’t conclude that it’s a result of the Pre-Trib position. Rather, I would say it’s perhaps the Calvinist belief (once saved always saved) as having contributed to the Laodicean luke warm falling away. Though I do agree persecution has great beneficial qualities. Throughout early church history, the church grew under persecution/trials.
In fact there are many reasons for the spread of false doctrine/luke warm apostasy. If we study the message to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, we find only two were found without fault. The Philadelphian and the Smyrna church. They overcame by the Blood of the Lamb even to death.
The church of Ephesus left it’s first love. (the Love of Truth in Jesus) The fault of the Pergamos was that they upheld the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
To the church of Thyatira, they allowed the seduction of Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. God gives them space for repentance but they refuse. For this purpose they are cast into great tribulation along with those that also refuse repentance.
The church of Sardis seems to have fallen asleep rather then remaining watchful and therefore were left behind so to speak. *note:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Of particular interest is the message to the Church of Philadelphians:
Rev 3:
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Note this verse particularly)
The only manner in which to overcome is by the Blood of the Lamb:
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
And to the Laodiceans He writes:
Rev 3:15-17
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
A couple things also worth noting is that in the introduction of the description of the seven churches, Jesus is in the midst of the seven churches, (Rev 2:1) but the description of the seven churches conclude with Jesus on the outside, (Rev 3:20)
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
At the conclusion of the description of the churches (in my view, the Church age conclusion) He states:
Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (cont..........)
I would also add for the purpose of emphasizing sound Doctrine:
1 Corinthians 3:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
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Quote~ Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
The Lord is not preparing a temporary dwelling place. The purpose of His preparation of a place for us, in His Father’s house (again, wedding analogy) is for us to be with Him. At the rapture the church will go to be with Him. She will return with Him to the earth, and remain with Him, reigning with Him on the earth.
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I agree with this that our home is permanent, but at the same time, the Kingdom Age ends at the conclusion of the 1000 year millennial reign. At the conclusion, satan is unbound for a season. Is there some type of transformational change for New Jerusalem coinciding at the end of the Kingdom Age? The Kingdom Age concludes and the perfect age begins.
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quote~ But there is no indication that this will be during the entirety of Daniel’s seventieth week. It is simply argued from anecdotal evidence that because the church is distinct from Israel (though Paul and the other apostles were Israelites) then we will not be here when God continues His work in Israel for the final seven years. But when does the “time of the Gentiles” begin and end? It began in 70 A.D. decades after the church began. The temple was still standing when the church began. Temple ceremonies were still going on. And Jewish believers, including the apostles, continued to participate in the temple activities until 70 A.D.
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I would agree that the “times of the gentiles” (The church age) either began with Pentecost, or the destruction of the Temple.
Which also suggests another possibility, could the dispensations overlap? Is it possible that the dispensations overlapped at the beginning, 2000 years ago?
As well, in these last days is it possible for the Kingdom Age to begin before the Church Age concludes?
Is it your belief that the times of the Gentiles began with the destruction of the Temple and will conclude by the rebuilding of the Temple? If so, it is food for thought.
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quote~ When will the purpose of Daniel’s seventieth week be fulfilled? At its inception or completion?
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
When will Israel “look on Him whom they have pierced” AND fulfill the second part of that prophecy by mourning and completing the national repentance ?
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I believe the seventy weeks will conclude with the physical return of Jesus Christ. Which will be at the conclusion of the seven year tribulation period. At the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon, Jesus returns in a cloud (that cloud to be the Church which was previously Raptured.)
Then the nation of Israel will receive their Savior:
Zechariah 13:5-6
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
But the beginning of the seventieth week begins in deception.
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Quote~ If Daniel’s seventieth week begins with Israel and the world falling for the deception of antichrist, as he rises to power, where do all of those persecuted for Jesus and His word come from?
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I agree, many will be persecuted and slain for the Testimony of the Lamb. But again, in my view, there are multiple stages of resurrections/raptures.
Isn’t it possible that at the time of the rise of the antichrist, (or shortly prior) the overcomers at that time, with those that have died with the same hope (the Philadelphian and Smyrna church) are risen/raptured to bewith the Lord. And those you reference are those that are left behind who come to repentance/and or Salvation after the seventieth week begins?
Personally I don’t believe the Holy Spirit leaves Earth at the initiation of the great tribulation period. So with the Holy Spirit remaining, there will be multitudes who are saved during this period. Leading to many being martyred.
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quote~ If the Holy Spirit was poured out with signs and wonders and fire and smoke and dreams, visions, and prophecies BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and the world rejected this, how are multitudes converted DURING the Day of the Lord?
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I believe this prophetic conclusion will occur during the great tribulation period. Thereby concluding what began at Pentecost.
The Rapture of the Church will be the greatest testimony to this generation than anything they could witness prior to being left behind. Many are scoffing today at these prophecies, but when they witness the vanishing of perhaps millions, they will then believe, become witnesses themselves to Evangelize others. Thereby continuing to fulfill the great commission and in answer to Romans 10:14
Even during a time of great deception, (the rise of the antichrist) can also bring about the greatest harvest known to man. Also fulfilling the following prophecy:
Matthew 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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quote~ The seven seals correspond exactly to the seven signs of the Olivet discourse. The “tribulation” in the verse above (i.e. Matthew 24:9) coincides with just before the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. We know this because the abomination of desolation is part of the events in this discourse (in verses 15-24). What follows is the greatest tribulation of all. Yet the Lord tells His disciples the “End” is not yet? Well, when is this time called the End that they asked about? How does Jesus describe His return immediately AFTER the days of tribulation, in which saints are gathered by angels, yet there is no description of all of the many judgements of the seven trumpets and seven seals that happen before Jesus returns to set up His kingdom?
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This may seem to simplistic of an answer to explain these discrepancies, but I, right or wrong have always held to the following belief:
John 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
In conjunction with the following also
The Word of God was delivered to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.
And as you’ve stated, Jesus was speaking to the Jews in the Olivet Discourse. Specifically speaking to those (Jews) who would be tried by fire in the times of Jacobs troubles. Not the Gentile Church.
Again, I could be wrong, but this is how I’ve always balanced the discrepancies.
As for sequence, I don’t think we can always rely on time sequence chronology.
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Quote~ The Biblical sequence is that the Great Tribulation begins in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. This is when Michael, the restrainer, kicks Satan out of Heaven, and Satan comes to earth with great wrath. This is when antichrist begins his reign of terror with the abomination of desolation. But this great tribulation is “cut short” by a divine, cosmic intervention—a cataclysmic celestial event that darkens sun and moon and forces earth-dwellers to take refuge underground.
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So far, I agree with this chronology of events. Which also (at this point coincides with pretrib beliefs) followed by multitudes who are left behind becoming Born Again.
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quote~ This disrupts their persecution of Christians, the great tribulation ends, Christ returns for His bride which is taken out, and then the wrath of God contained in seven trumpets and seven bowls is poured out in flaming fire on the earth. After this, Christ returns and sets up His kingdom on the earth which He restores. His bride comes with Him to share in His reign.
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I view this as another stage regarding multiple Resurrections. However, the Great Tribulation continues with the Battle of Armageddon. We know that the 144,000 Jews are separate from the Gentile church. That in itself speaks of two separate and defined Resurrections. At least to my understanding.
At the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon, Jesus returns with His Bride and defeats the enemies of Israel. Israel accepts Him as Savior, and Jesus sets up His Millennial Reign. (New Jerusalem) At this time satan is bound until a season at the end of the Kingdom Age.
Then also, at the period of time concluding the Kingdom Age, the dead are raised for the Great White Throne Judgement.
Paul thought he was living in the end times.
Quote~ Paul thought he was living in the end times.
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Actually it was just the opposite. He had to correct the thoughts and beliefs of the early church of Thessaloniki.
2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Thank you. This coincides with the beliefs I’ve always held.
I’ll have to save this.
1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;
Duly noted, if respective to the following?
1 Corinthians 7:
32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
With that, I would also agree the time is that short.
Just as it was in Paul’s time
From hindsight, no, it is now much shorter than in Paul’s day. In hindsight we know that since the Tribulation is a time when Jewish people will be evangelizing, Paul did not have access to the span of time during which Israel would be dispersed into the entire world, Jerusalem no longer a Jewish city, and the return to the land and a nation born in a day. Paul may have been shown it would happen, but his own letters indicate he did not realize the time span would be so vast between Jerusalem trodden down and the snatching away of all believers. Put another way, I don’t think Paul was given to know the lengthy period between Daniel’s sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week.
We know we are in the beginning of the end of the end times, because of the re-establishment of the state of Israel.
As it was in the days of Noah and the days of Lot, so shall it be, Jesus said.
The wicked were the ones taken, “the fire came and destroyed them all.”
The righteous were protected and remained.
Also, the Lord shall descend at the last trump scripture says. There are 7 trumpets in Revelation. Much happens during the 6 trumpets. The Lord descends at the last or 7th trumpet.
Paul says he was “caught up” to the third heaven. Yet, he was still on the earth. His spirit was caught up to a heavenly place. Shall those who remain be “caught up” in spirit to meet those who are coming back to earth with the Lord to rule and reign? And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
“I agree that there is a great falling away from truth in these last days, which Paul referred to as apostasy. It was affirmed to occur. But I can’t conclude that it’s a result of the Pre-Trib position. Rather, I would say it’s perhaps the Calvinist belief (once saved always saved) as having contributed to the Laodicean luke warm falling away. “
I wouldn’t say that pre-trib is a cause of apostasy per se. I am not even prepared to go as far as calling it a heresy or false doctrine. I just think it is an error that needs to be sorted out. I do believe it could mislead some to be ill-prepared for what is coming though.
Even though I do not consider myself a Calvinist, I do have a great deal of respect for Reformed theologians like John Piper, for example. He calls himself a “seven point Calvinist” (even though there are only five points). In their defense, the TULIP acronym ends with P for perseverance of the saints. This is a clear Biblical teaching. Some might categorize it as “once saved always saved” but it is more nuanced. The assertion is that all who are elect will believe AND persevere. Only those who endure to the end will be saved. (But those who believe will be preserved and will endure because we are “kept by the power of God” and are “appointed” for salvation.)
“Of particular interest is the message to the Church of Philadelphians:
Rev 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(Note this verse particularly)”
Agreed. Couple of interesting points can be gleaned here. First, the Great Tribulation is a worldwide phenomenon. Likewise, we see the scope of the ministry of the two witnesses impacting the entire world, unlike with previous prophets who were known much more locally. The whole world will celebrate their deaths (until God raises them up).
A second point is that present faithfulness to Christ’s words and enduring patience in the face of adversity and persecution is connected to being spared from the Great Tribulation. Such a statement forces us to examine our positions on prophecy. Is escaping these things conditional? How will the escape happen? The rapture? Divine protection?
I think the endurance being spoke of here is probably an attribute of all true believers, essentially. But it may also be that those who have been less faithful may encounter more hardship during this time. I do not agree with those who see the rapture as the escape intended by this passage because the Greek word for “keep” is “tereso” which is the same word used on Christ’s prayer for us in John:
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
I could not ask for more definitive proof than this to argue that for God to “keep” us from the Great Tribulation does NOT require that we be taken out of the world. Obviously, being taken out of the world would keep us, but it is not the only way God can or does keep His own.
An entirely different word is used to describe our relationship to God’s wrath. We are also kept, so-to-speak, from God’s wrath, but in a different sense. We are completely removed from it.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. The word there for “deliver” is rhyomenon.
Believers are delivered from tribulations in a different sense than we are delivered from God’s wrath. We may avoid tribulations, or endure them, or experience Divine protection through them. But we do not experience God’s wrath because Christ endured this wrath in our place.
“To the church of Thyatira, they allowed the seduction of Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. God gives them space for repentance but they refuse. For this purpose they are cast into great tribulation along with those that also refuse repentance.”
It is those who committed adultery with this woman and did not repent who were to be cast into the Great Tribulation. One interesting thing about the letters to the churches here is that they were literal churches contemporary to John’s writing. But they also clearly received messages that are intended for all churches. (”He who has an ear...”) Further, some of the things said, like this one, indicate clearly that some of the message pertains to things that were far in the future for them (though they did not know it at the time). All seven of these churches are in modern-day Turkey where Islam currently dominates and Christianity is barely tolerated.
“I would agree that the ‘times of the gentiles’ (The church age) either began with Pentecost, or the destruction of the Temple.”
The “times of the Gentiles” is distinct from the church age. It may represents the time during which the temple mount is not under the control of the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. This has been the case since 70 A.D. until now. However, it might be more specific in the context of the 42 months that Gentiles will trample Jerusalem under foot and also when the courtyard of the temple remains under Gentile control.
It is opposite in nature compared with the church age and the time during which the “fullness of the Gentiles” come into the kingdom. The church age began on Pentecost and will be complete when all who will be saved are saved. This is probably the rapture, but I’m not dogmatic about this.
“At the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon, Jesus returns in a cloud (that cloud to be the Church which was previously Raptured.)”
A cloud received Jesus out of the sight of the disciples in Acts 1:9, and an angel told them He would return as they had seen Him go. I believe the cloud is an allusion to the cloud of glory that the Lord appeared in to Israel during the ministry of Moses. He was in a cloud by day and a fire by night.
“Isn’t it possible that at the time of the rise of the antichrist, (or shortly prior) the overcomers at that time, with those that have died with the same hope (the Philadelphian and Smyrna church) are risen/raptured to bewith the Lord. And those you reference are those that are left behind who come to repentance/and or Salvation after the seventieth week begins?”
I’ve never really considered the possibility of multiple raptures. It seems counterintuitive and I don’t see the need for such events to explain the passages pertaining to the rapture. Paul describes the dead in Christ rising and then the immediate translation of living saints to meet them in the air. There are some distinct events that are part of Christ’s second coming. There is an event in which believers are gathered to Christ. There is an event in which the wicked are gathered and removed. There is an event in which Christ meets us in the air. There is an event in which Christ plants His feet on the Mount of Olives. Clearly there are some distinct aspects of His second coming just as His first coming included His conception, birth, growing up, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. I believe His second coming is equivalent to the Day of the Lord in this sense. It should be thought of as a time period rather than a single event. However, some might make the distinction that His second coming includes the millennial reign, but the Day of the Lord is separate from that. But it appears to me that, based on the way the apostles used these terms, they are synonymous.
“We know that the 144,000 Jews are separate from the Gentile church.”
For clarification, the Gentile church is NOT separate from the Jewish church. We are one body. So, for example, when Revelation talks about the great multitude which no man can number from ALL nations, this includes the nation of Israel. All languages includes native Hebrew speakers. All ethnicities includes those who are the biological descendants of Jacob. Etc.
But, yes, there is a distinct group of 144,000 Jews who are chosen and ordained by God for a special purpose during, what I think to be, the Day of the Lord. While the purpose of this group has commonly been taught to be evangelism, I do not see that in the text. It is a reasonable speculation, which I will not argue against.
A number of the passages identified in your list under “rapture” are described in the texts as Jesus “coming” again. Further, Hebrews 9:28, which you have listed under “rapture” specifically says this is the “second” time He is coming. Wouldn’t that make the event you describe as the “second coming” an actual “third coming” of Christ?
You have 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 in the “second coming” list. This passage says that when Christ comes, it will be “with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance...” But this does not seem to match the description of Christ’s return in Revelation at the end of what I think we both agree to be Daniel’s seventieth week (Revelation 19). But I see a lot of fire poured out on the earth by angels during the trumpet and bowl judgments.
This same passage also addresses the Thessalonians (who were going through severe persecution) and assures them when Christ comes (as described in this chapter) they will be given rest. Wouldn’t they have already been given rest seven years earlier at the rapture rather than finally getting rest when the Lord returns after Daniel’s seventieth week? Also, wouldn’t they be part of the host of armies returning with Christ at that time (if He is returning with “ALL of His saints”)? That does not sound like rest.
Your list is missing some important passages, such as 1 Corinthians 11:26 ( For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes). There is also Hebrews 10, which applies a quote from Habakkuk 2 to the return of the Lord and also the Day of the Lord. Habakkuk 2 is about “watching”.
Hebrews 10:37
For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Note the connection to verse 25, which says we should be “exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.” How will anyone see this day approaching if it is signless?
There are cases which seem to be arbitrarily assigned to the two respective lists in which the the same book or passage supposedly references BOTH the rapture and second coming but there seems to be no indication of such distinction within the passage itself. For example, all five chapters of 1 Thessalonians contain a reference on one of the lists. But chapter 3 is specified as “second coming” while the others are all labeled “rapture”. Wouldn’t such jumping from one event to another, using the same word (i.e. “coming” etc.) create confusion rather than the clarity these passages seem to be seeking to accomplish? Likewise, you have references in both lists from 2 Thessalonians. Is there any evidence from any of these texts to draw this distinction?
Obviously there is a difference between Christ meeting us in the air versus His return to the earth. There is a difference between gathering the elect and gathering the wicked. These are clear distinctions from the text. But I see no such distinction about the coming of the Lord to warrant dividing them into these two lists other than arbitrarily imposing a pre-trib view upon them. More importantly, there is nothing (that I have found or anyone has pointed out to me) that indicates that the first list should be placed on the timeline at the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week, or that the second list should be placed at the end of the seventieth week. Can you identify any such support from the texts?
The exhortations to wait for the Lord, be patient for the Lord’s return, love His appearing, and have an eager expectation, are all consistent with a pre-trib view. But I do not see how a signless, “any moment” rapture fits with the exhortation to “watch” for His return in the rapture. Yet Christ clearly commands the church in Sardis to watch for His return:
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
This happens to be another reference your list does not include. But how does a believer “watch” for the rapture if it is supposedly signless and could happen at any moment with no intervening signs to alert us of its imminence?
How is “like a thief” applied to the Day of the Lord (e.g. 1 Thess. 5), as well as within the passages that clearly fall under “rapture” (e.g. Revelation 3:3), and the passages you have listed under “second coming” (e.g. 2 Peter 3)? In what sense do all three happen “like a thief”? And if His return and the Day of the Lord is explicitly NOT “like a thief” to those who watch, then how can this event be imminent?
Quote~ “I do believe it could mislead some to be ill-prepared for what is coming though.”
_Perhaps, But I still maintain that PreTrib is correct. One thing is for sure, we are soon to find out.
-Agree, as long as free will is maintained as mans choice. And as long as it doesn’t go as far as a doctrine of predestination. A believer must maintain a true faith and perseverance of heart.
On a side note off topic, I’ve spoken with others who are end-trib, or post-trib. And I have been told the reason is that God’s purpose for this is that they must go through the tribulation for purification reasons. But when I ask, if that is so, then how did those before you, who died with the same hope, become purified? I never seem to get an answer.
-I think we need to take God’s Word here at face value. The conditional component is, if we maintain True Faith in the Blood of the Lamb as the means for which we overcome the world, then I trust He will keep us from the hour of great tribulation.
-Rather then call it an escape, I look at it as a promise kept. A reward per-sey.
As for the Two Witnesses, this is quite fascinating. God has definitely brought them (likely Enoch and Elijah) back to bring fulfillment to His Word.
In order to fulfill prophecy, He would have to provide Divine protection and intervention. And to be a witness for the entirety of the world.
The Evangelism during these times is their witnessing the Word of God continually. And when attempts are made upon their lives, their enemies will suffer Divine Judgement.
When it is appointed unto them to die, then the entirety of the world will witness their Resurrection. Again, this is why I don’t believe the church will be required during the time of the great tribulation to remain in order to Evangelize. God is not dependent upon us, but rather we upon Him.
-Yes, but not as the worldly church merits reward. But rather God’s unmerited favor. IF we maintain True Faith, having overcome solely by the Blood of the Lamb.
Our Victory was assured 2,000 years ago. Our conditional response is to maintain True Faith in the Victory at Calvary.
-This is the Divine Protection as we go about our daily lives. In order to protect us from satan’s devices. This is referencing our ability to overcome the world by the Blood of the Lamb.We must carry that verse forth in context:
John 17:
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
The Victory was already assured even as He was here praying.
1 Peter 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Our Victory over the world we received by inheritance as joint heirs of Christ. By Faith we are delivered from things to come.
I agree completely. Though much more could be stated in reference to Thyatira, but not wanting to offend, I withheld common criticisms. The main contention here is the spiritual adultery component. “She” continues this day to seduce many. Another description of her is found in Proverbs 7. Many, I believe are drawn under her one world religion umbrella today. I also think its imperative to note, how we read in the letter to the Philadelphian church, that we are drawn out so to speak:
Rev 3:10-12
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
*Notice the sharp contrast between the Philadelphian church and the Thyatira church below:
Rev 2:20-22
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
So in this respect, we can say that “part” of the “church” will surely enter into the tribulation hour, (he that hath an ear, let him hear......)but those that maintain Victory by the Blood of the Lamb will be snatched away. Whether of the Philadelphian Church (those remaining) or those that have maintained the Faith unto death, (the martyred church, the Smyrna Church.)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
BTW, many in the church of Thyatira maintain tradition over sola scriptura. Believing we are presently in the Millennial Reign and have no hope in the Rapture, nor even believing in it’s authenticity to Scripture. Also believing in replacement theology, teaching that the “one church” has taken the place of the Covenant God made with Abraham concerning Israel. Again, he that hath an ear, be warned.........
"Wouldn’t that make the event you describe as the “second coming” an actual “third coming” of Christ?" Nice try, but if you look at what the Jews believed would be 'coming of the Messiah, they did not perceive two or three events as 'the coming of Messiah'. In the Rapture Jesus comes in the Air not to the earth. In the Final Day of the Lord, Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two.
The chart is not mine, it was drawn up by Tommy Ice and I find it fits the differentiating of the Raptur event from the touch down event at the end of the Great Tribulation.
Pardon me but I haven't the time to dissect your misdirections fully. They are too extensive in number but not truth. Preterists tend to like the obfuscating using massive utterances.
Thank you for taking the time to deal with this lengthy misdirection.
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