Do most Calvinists really know what Calvin taught about predestination?

Running Away From My Church Blog ^ | 5/25/2018 | Robert Messner

[MrEdd]

It isn’t “a workaround”.

It’s a concept found throughout scripture, and if later false religions like Buddhism and Hinduism incorporate the same concept that is irrelevant.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I didn't say anything about "master of my destiny." A person can no more "save himself" than he could take a knife in hand to do a heart-transplant on himself, or do a retinal re-attachment, himself, on his own blind eyes.

The great thing about God is that He willed NOT to be the only will in the Universe. The geat thing is that He willed beings who could do as they will. That's what makes love possible.

If we were acting out predestined scripts such that our choices meant nothing, there would be no love (unless you think you could, for example, get love from a sexbot.)

If we had no choices, it would be nothing but gratuitous sadism for God to use any imperative verb.

"Repent and believe the Good News", "Love the Lord your God," "Choose Life"--- glory to God, He means exactly that.

[Bryanw92]

>>It isn’t “a workaround”.

It is. I already explained why.

>>It’s a concept found throughout scripture, and if later false religions like Buddhism and Hinduism incorporate the same concept that is irrelevant.

It is a proof text found by taking them out of context.

BTW, Buddhism and Hinduism are older than Christianity.

[Bryanw92]

>>”Repent and believe the Good News”, “Love the Lord your God,” “Choose Life”-— glory to God, He means exactly that.

“Choose life” is only found in Deuteronomy and it is irrelevant to this discussion.

But the other two are very Calvinist.

Repent and believe the Good News. Yes. You were chosen. Not just for salvation after death. You were chosen to KNOW and be DRAWN toward God. Not to some man-made church with priests who tell you want to think and act as intercessors. Not to be drawn to saints who can talk for you. YOU were called. That is Christianity (until about 500 AD and then after 1517).

Love the Lord your God. Absolutely. But, if you KNOW God, how could you NOT love? Do you believe that you are so powerful that you can ignore the love of the greatest being in the universe when he smiles down upon you? That is arrogant! You believe that your ways are God’s ways. That is not true.

[Mad Dawg]

From where, from whom comes the impulse, the choice, to ask, to seek, to knock?

When someone comes to me complaining of a lack of fervor, I give what seems to me to be the only reasonable counsel: Then pray for the gift of fervor!

I, a Catholic, advised a fellow Catholic who said everything depended on our ability and willingness to forgive. Sure, in a way, forgiveness is a kind of pons asinorum. Water only flows in pipes open at both ends, one end to receive, the other to give. But can I forgive without God's prevenient grace? Everything depends on God, and that includes my ability to forgive.

Obviously, a Catholic won't be a Calvinist. But Calvin, for all his snark, was no fool. An adequate theology has to tangle with the utter Sovereignty of God. And a Christian living in the hope of glory sees that there will always be more to understand about God, that his mystery will always be at least one step ahead of our comprehension.

So, in one of the “canticles” or songs of Isaiah, which appears in our 4 week cycle of daily prayers, we sing, “... for you have accomplished everything we have done.” [Is 26: 12b, RSV — thou hast wrought for us all our works.]

AND I never tire of referring to Philippians 2:12b-13: ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

He made us to respond to the Good. He enables the response. When we fall in love, it is both a receiving and an acting. We do not lose our freedom, we find it.

[Bob434]

[[If someone, i.e. God, knows what is going to happen with complete certainty isn’t that pretty close to our lives being predetermined?]]

No not really- He foreknows how a man’s free will will choose- He doesn’t force that person to make the decision. He doesn’t predetermine how they will choose- He does however Foreknow- If I know how someone will respond, I don’t control how they choose- but just know how they will choose something-

Predestination is a tough subject- in a sense, we are ‘predestined to accept or reject’ the will of God- but that is not to suggest we don’t have control of how we will eventually choose- We still exhibit free will even though the outcome is foreknown by God. God brings all the circumstances necessary fro salvation into our lives- and we ultimately choose- We can’t say “I was never meant to be saved, so I give up and won’t even try to find God’ Because everything necessary to find Him is available to us personally-

While predestination appears to be fatalistic (ie I have no real choice because my life is laid out long before I was ever born) it isn’t- God certainly knows how we will choose- but He provides all the necessary evidences for us to choose wisely if we so choose to- Even though our live’s directions are foreknown- God simply foreknows how we will choose- He doesn’t force anyone to choose against their free will- I

In a sense God predestines, or predetermines the circumstances (the circumstances that allow everyone to know enough about God to either choose or reject) that we will encounter in our lives- He controls the circumstances that affect our free will

God predestines Christ dying on the cross (Christ was willing to die) in order to bring salvation to all. I suppose in a sense Christ could have refused- But being the all loving God that He is- He CHOSE to die for us all- His nature compelled Him to do so

People who reject God choose to do God’s will in the sense thaT God uses evil people to accomplish His will- He doesn’t force these evil people to reject Him- But since He knew they would, He directs circumstances to use the evil for good top accomplish His will. These people would never accept God no matter what is placed before them because they have hardened their hearts against Him- and God knows this and uses their evil actions for specific purposes

It’s like if i know how someone is going to react- I will prepare things so that their decision, which was preknown by me, will further my goal

Since God knows we will accept Him- He prepares ‘good works for us so that we can walk in them’- He makes it possible for us to make the right choices

Again- this is a tough subject-, and reading books like Pinjk’s ‘The Sovereignty of God’ can be very depressing, leading one to think we have no choice in our decisions- and making it seem like God created people to reject Him without giving them a chance to accept Him- but this isn’t the case

[Mrs. Don-o]

No actual choice is irrelevant.

But without actual choice, everything is irrelevant.

[ADSUM]

So you just ignore the words (Truth) of Jesus. Your comment:
“Absolutely not. “

You seem to pick and choose what you believe and some is not in agreement with the exact words of Jesus. Do you know more than Jesus? Your reference to 1 Corinthians was about the Jews in the desert and not about the Church that Jesus founded later.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19)

May you find the Truth of Jesus and return to the Mass and the Sacraments.

[Bryanw92]

>>But without actual choice, everything is irrelevant.

It is when your choice is “I will not follow all your Commandments perfectly.” Because that is your choice. the only thing worse about not understanding your unrepented sin is spending your time in guilt worrying about your unrepented sin, because it is there and it will send you to hell.

My pastor loves to say, “Relax, you are worse than you think you are! But, the good news of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died as the payment for those sins and he gives you his perfect life to present to the Father.”

That is true Calvinism right there. Forget the robot analogies. They are lies.

But, if you it takes Christ’s work on the Cross plus your work to save you, then why did he die? Was he not powerful enough? Was he not good enough? did he not suffer enough for you that you feel the need to symbolically suffer a bit for yourself? Because that’s what it is. It is self-worship to think that your work is necessary. It is blasphemy to think that some other man can take your sins away.

[Mr Rogers]

“There are too many passages in Scripture where God tells us to choose.”

Amen!

Genesis 4: Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you furious? And why do you look despondent? If you do what is right, won’t you be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

Revelation 22: “Both the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let anyone who hears, say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come. Let the one who desires take the water of life freely.”

From beginning to end, we are taught we have choices - real choices - to make. We can accept God’s free gift, or spurn it. “Anyone who believes in him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.”

If I accept a gift, I am not earning it. It remains a gift. If someone else pays my debt, I cannot claim to have paid it. It remains paid by someone else.

[Theophilus]

"...no amount of righteous living will save you."

Amen!

[Chuckster]

given that, how does one choose a church; or does one even bother with church?

[Theophilus]

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

[Bryanw92]

>>Philippians 2:13
>>For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Thanks for posting that!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Although there's nothing anyone can do "on their own" to earn their salvation, there are things one can do that --- if unrepented --- are guaranteed to lose it.

Revelation 21:8
But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshipers, and all who love and practice deceit.

[Mad Dawg]

I like to say there’s a difference between jumping in the river and taking credit for the river.

[Bryanw92]

>>But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers

So, a coward is going to hell with a murderer? Which commandment did he break?

[Mrs. Don-o]

You’ll have to ask the Author.

[redangus]

But if he knows what decisions we are going to make before we consciously make them then haven’t our decisions been predetermined. If not the God is not all knowing.

I also have not yet figured out how many angels can sit on the head of a pin, but I’m working on it.

[Mad Dawg]

My pastor loves to say, “Relax, you are worse than you think you are! But, the good news of the gospel is that Jesus Christ died as the payment for those sins and he gives you his perfect life to present to the Father.”

I love this.

But, if you it takes Christ’s work on the Cross plus your work to save you, then why did he die? Was he not powerful enough? Was he not good enough? did he not suffer enough for you that you feel the need to symbolically suffer a bit for yourself?

How do you construe Col 1:24 ?

The (very) old name for what is now "The Lay Fraternities of St. Dominic" was "The Order of Penance." But Dominicans are known for being jovial. Suffering and joy are not incompatible.