Does Christianity Produce Agnostics?

Sigh. I suppose this is the old "only the descendants of Judah should be called 'Jews'" argument. The name of Judah is from the Hebrew "to thank, to gratefully acknowledge. All Israelites may be called Jews because each and every Jew consciously or subconsciously is an acknowledgement of G-d.

Each tribe was listed and the promise for each individually. However, because the House of Israel went whoring around God divorced them and sent them into captivity, and part of their punishment would be they would not know who they were. Now the House of Judah comprised of Judah and Benjamin and those two were sent to Babylon. The two 'sticks' have not been rejoined per Ezekiel 37.

You seem to be conflating the movie with The Book. If you read Exodus 19 and 20 you will see that all the Jews and others gathered around Mt. Sinai heard the voice of G-d. They were so stricken with fear that they began screaming for G-d to stop. After the first two utterances (given in first person) G-d had to relay the remaining eight (given in third person) via Moses because they people simply could not continue to experience such a revelation of G-d and live. It was only after this mass revelation that Moses went to the top of the mountain to receive the Two Tablets, and during which time the people built the golden calf. You should really read your Bible more.

The spin you place on what actually occurred is very liberal. The Creator was so pleased with His newly freed people, He required them to wander around in the wilderness for 40 years. And even Moses, after hitting the 'Rock' was not allowed to enter the 'promise land'.. Moses did write all about the 'Rock', and noted that there are two rocks... an impostor has been in the mix since the Garden Party.

This is what you believe. I know he is not. I've been on this forum for eighteen years and for all that time have never read a rational argument from a chrstian as to why the religion is true. All chrstian apologetics on this forum reduce to constant repetition of chrstian claims and beliefs without one argument for external proof.

You claim to know the Torah, and yet you are blind to the 'fact' that Christ was there from the beginning... Genesis 1:1... maybe you need better teachers.

This Christian knows G-d exists. I have been directly in his presence at the foot of the incredibly large throne. It was both love indescribable and absolute terror at His power.

You are a very nice, polite person, unlike some people, so I hope you won't take this the wrong way. But the Revelation at Sinai is the ultimate and definitive revelation which sits in judgment on all others. Claims of individual revelations cannot be verified but must be judged in the light of that definitive revelation. Besides, people of every religion have claimed such experiences that validate their religions. The individual who has received them may be profoundly moved, but nothing can be objectively proven.

Unfortunately that doesn’t help you.

Nor anyone else who didn't experience the personal revelation along with you.

Have you read the Christian books? I know several orthodox Jews who have accepted Yeshua (Jesus for some Christians here) as messiah. They all stated they completely avoided reading the new covenant books because they believed they were filled with anti-Jewish hate and blasphemy. In reality they are Jewish books written by Jewish men. I would encourage you to at least read through the first book or two - especially in one of the translations done by former rabbis. Keep an open mind.

I am not Jewish. I am a Noachide who was a lifelong chrstian until some twenty-seven years ago.

It's not about whether or not the "new testament" is anti-Semitic (though it's much more anti-Semitic than philo-Semitic chrstians will admit). The point is that G-d had already spoken and His objective Revelation to perhaps three million people simply does not allow for any supersession such as chrstianity claims (and I don't care if you call it "fulfillment" instead). Accepting the "new testament" is no different than accepting the "book of mormon," yet the same chrstians who do that (because "it's new!") can't seem to understand why the people who heard the Voice of G-d at Sinai could not accept the religion or claims of J*sus. I KNOW we serve the same G-d. Please do not judge Christianity by the behavior of Christians - or by the actions, particularly historical, of those who were Christian in name only. Instead - go to the books themselves.

But the Revelation at Sinai is the ultimate and definitive revelation which sits in judgment on all others. Claims of individual revelations cannot be verified but must be judged in the light of that definitive revelation. Besides, people of every religion have claimed such experiences that validate their religions. The individual who has received them may be profoundly moved, but nothing can be objectively proven.

Right.

Because you were there.

And you saw it all.

And you have the pictures to prove it.

It's just taken you a while to get them developed.

But the Revelation at Sinai is the ultimate and definitive revelation which sits in judgment on all others. Claims of individual revelations cannot be verified but must be judged in the light of that definitive revelation. Besides, people of every religion have claimed such experiences that validate their religions. The individual who has received them may be profoundly moved, but nothing can be objectively proven.

Right.

Because you were there.

And you saw it all.

And you have the pictures to prove it.

It's just taken you a while to get them developed.

No, I wasn't there (though I know of people who were!).

There are two kinds of religions: one kind has no historical founder, but blends into mythology. This includes the various "indigenous" religions, hinduism, shinto, etc. The other kind were historically founded by historical persons, often claiming a special "revelation" from a "gxd" (or to be the incarnation of a "gxd"). These two kinds of religions share one thing in common: any one or number (or all) of them could be true . . . but there is no way to know for sure.

However, among this latter group--those historically founded--one stands out because it wasn't started by a human being claiming to have received a revelation (or to be "gxd"). There is only one claim in history of G-d--not a human being of any kind--publicly revealing Himself to perhaps as many as three million people at once, who then passed down the knowledge and obligations to all their successive descendants.

I repeat: there is only one such claim in all history. Now what does this tell us? It tells us that it actually happened. Why? Because a public, national revelation is the best possible basis for any religion. Yet there is only one such claimed revelation. A random event never happens only once. If this particular claim were false, history would be littered with similar claims, yet it is not. There is one and only one such claim. The fact that no one else has ever made the claim in all human history proves that this one and only claim must be true.

I have on numerous occasions posted links to this article which explains this in great detail. Perhaps you would care to read a far better explication of the matter than I can give? Or perhaps not.

I know you don't like me, but I can't help but wonder why my defenses of Torah bother you so much more than all the Nazi garbage that's been showing up on this site lately. No one else seems to care about them.

I was not raised in what most people would call a religious home but I always sensed that some one or some power was up
there keeping an eye on every one and every thing.

It was only after I got older and got into religion that I
started having any doubt’s, since then I have found some
good churches but no good religions.

“poor preaching and poor teaching of the gospel would do it.”

Oh that certainly is part of it. Bad leadership, or lack there of too. However, I’d say that it is super rare that I find ‘Christians’ that have any desire or appetite for Scripture.... That probably has more to do with it than anything else. Too many seek the world.

However, among this latter group--those historically founded--one stands out because it wasn't started by a human being claiming to have received a revelation (or to be "gxd"). There is only one claim in history of G-d--not a human being of any kind--publicly revealing Himself to perhaps as many as three million people at once, who then passed down the knowledge and obligations to all their successive descendants.

As what? A cloud, a storm, a fire, a light, a voice someone thinks they hear in a downpour? Events like that have been seen or heard by peoples all around the world as signs from gods. Whether there was anything more than that is impossible to say now.

Hundreds of years passed from the when the events of Exodus are supposed to have happened to when they were first written down, and then there was another century or two until they took their accepted form. It's remarkable that anything has survived centuries and millennia like that, but that was certainly plenty of time for myths and legends to grow up.

I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that there isn't the kind of certainty about it that you claim to have. It's not obvious that it's in a different category from other claims for the appearance of gods to mortals.

I understand. You have to believe that your religion is grounded in absolute truth and undeniable fact. So you go back to a point where conflicting information either wasn't written down, or didn't survive, or was suppressed, and you claim that events had to happen in the way you believe it did simply because there are no contradictory accounts.

The fact that there's only one account makes it seem convincing to you, but it's hardly proof in itself, and there are enough contradictions between the various sources in the Bible themselves to suggest that iron-clad certainty isn't possible.

There is one and only one such claim. The fact that no one else has ever made the claim in all human history proves that this one and only claim must be true.

That is because you believe that what happened occurred before a crowd of 3 million people. Most scholars disagree with that. Substitute more reasonable (much smaller) figures and then consider the gap of 600 years or more from when the events are said to have happened to when accounts of them were written and things are a lot less certain.

I know you don't like me, but I can't help but wonder why my defenses of Torah bother you so much more than all the Nazi garbage that's been showing up on this site lately. No one else seems to care about them.

I've seen some arguments about World War II, but haven't read any outright Nazi posts here. If I do, I'll comment. I don't like the way you're always pretending to be a friend of Christian fundamentalists while you insult the fundamentals of their faith with this "chrstian" stuff. I think you want to have it both ways, playing the defender of simple people and scorning and despising what they actually believe. That's not an attractive trait. I'm also not that crazy about the way you are always attacking Catholics as though they are the only people who disagree with your point of view. But I don't have any personal feelings against you. You are one of the cranks who make FR interesting. Live and be well.