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To: Campion
Is the baptism which doesn't save you the same as the baptism which 1 Pt 3:21 says very clearly does save you?

Peter is specifically saying that water baptism does NOT save you.

1 Peter 3:18-22For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

There is no meriting our salvation. There is NOTHING we can do to merit it as all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags in God's sight.

Here's is Paul's discourse on justification by faith alone.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


10 posted on 05/28/2017 3:08:58 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

Peter does use the word “save” in context of baptism. But it is not about being saved from sin or God’s wrath. He is talking about being saved from the claims that the world and the Devil have upon the lives of unbelievers.

We receive forgiveness from sin by faith. Water baptism is a public claiming of our right to a good conscience with respect to the world and the principalities. It identifies us publicly with the finished work of Christ.

Evangelicals sometimes minimize the importance of baptism because of some who make it into a work for salvation. It is not that. But it is a very important command of God.


40 posted on 05/28/2017 5:20:03 PM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: metmom

Is the baptism which doesn’t save you the same as the baptism which 1 Pt 3:21 says very clearly does save you?
Peter is specifically saying that water baptism does NOT save you.


Egads no. A million times no. He’s specifically saying (water) baptism DOES save you. He’s saying that you’re not saved because dirt is washed off of you. Which would be a mighty pointless thing to mention if he wasn’t talking about something where water is used.

If there were no water being used in baptism, his quote would be just as meaningless as if he had written “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as an application of makeup to the body...” Of course this is an incoherent statement, because baptism has nothing to do with makeup being applied to the body. So if there were no dirt being removed from the body during baptism, why would he mention it? Of course he wouldn’t.

And of course he compares it to the flood, which dealt with - uh a lot of water.

So then he goes on to clarify HOW baptism saves you. It’s not because dirt is washed off, it’s through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This is of course completely consistent with all of the other passages on baptism, where it is said that baptism:
Cleanses you from iniquity, gives you a heart of flesh rather that of stone. Ezekiel 36:25-33
Makes you a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 28:19 (with teaching)
Forgives your sins. Acts 2:38 (With repentance)
Gives you the Holy Spirit. John 3:5, Acts 2:38.
Joins you with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Romans 6:2-5, Colossians 2:12.
Washes the Church and makes her holy. Ephesians 5:25-26
Clothes you in Christ. Galatians 3:27.
Regenerates you. Titus 3:5.

And you’re absolutely right about there’s no meriting one’s salvation. At least - not by our own merits. Only by Jesus’s merits. But none of that has anything to do with baptism. Because baptism isn’t our work. It’s God’s work. Because humans are totally incapable of doing any of the things in the preceding paragraph.

Only God can.


61 posted on 05/28/2017 6:55:40 PM PDT by CraigEsq
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To: metmom

**Here’s is Paul’s discourse on justification by faith alone.**......

.....Where Paul is addressing people that are already born again. (”To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints..”. Rom. 1:7 ). No need for the men to get circumcised. No animal sacrifices.

Romans 4:3 is a direct quote from Genesis 15:6; a declaration from God that was made after Abraham obeyed God to quite an extent:

..Left Haran, with all that pertained to him (using “you-haul”. Or maybe camel-haul), traveled over 400 miles.....

..built two altars (no doubt offered sacrifices)....

..traveled over 150 miles to rescue kinfolk in a night battle, returning to be blessed by a great priest, whom he would give tithes of all that he had to....

Then, after God makes the same promise of multiplying Abraham’s seed for the third time, do we read Gen. 15:6

Back to Romans......

Chapter 6 shows Paul reminding the converts in Rome of their conversion. They “obeyed” (vs 17).

Mr Idleman makes this statement, pulling out a verse (from the context I have just been pointing out) to support his doctrine:

**The theme throughout the New Testament is clear: Faith in Christ alone saves. Romans 10:9 states, “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”**

First of all, Paul is addressing born again people.
Secondly, he’s still on the topic of the lost condition of Israel (10:1)
Thirdly, he’s pointing out that they can still be saved (The original converts of the rebirth were Jews).
Fourthly, Paul warns the converts in Rome not to get highminded (11:18-22), for God can cut off the highminded, and graft Israel back in.


84 posted on 05/28/2017 10:47:37 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: metmom

**not as a removal of dirt from the body**

Nevertheless, this phrase is in there: “BAPTISM doth also now save us”

Water baptism is not a bath, but is done in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. That is how it saves. That is how one has the answer of a good conscience toward God. Being buried with him “in likeness of his death” is where you get his blood on you, but his NAME must not be left out.


87 posted on 05/28/2017 10:58:32 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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