Posted on 09/21/2016 5:00:38 AM PDT by Gamecock
“Peter and John answered them, ‘Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard’ ” (vv. 19–20). - Acts 4:1–22
From the earliest days of the church, Christians have stressed their duty to be good citizens and obedient to the state. Paul in Romans 13, for example, writes of the believer’s obligation to pay taxes and submit to the right exercise of governmental authority. The first-and second-century Christian apologists (defenders of the faith) such as Justin Martyr (AD 100–165) wrote treatises defending Christianity against pagans who unjustly accused believers of thinking that they did not have to submit to the state. And throughout church history, believers have followed the New Testament admonition to pray “for kings and all who are in high positions” (1 Tim. 2:1–2).
At the same time, however, Christians have by and large understood that there are points at which the godly response to the state is to disobey its orders. In today’s passage, for instance, we read of what happened when Peter and John were arrested by the Jewish religious authorities in Jerusalem for proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah. When they were forbidden from preaching the gospel, the Apostles responded, placing the onus on the council to prove that they had to listen to the council’s authority over God’s command to proclaim Christ. In other words, they told the Jewish leaders that their command was illegitimate, that the followers of Jesus must keep His commandments even when they violate the orders of the state (Acts 4:19–20).
In Peter and John’s example, we see a key principle that must govern our understanding of church and state: when the state’s commands conflict with God’s commands, believers must follow the Lord. Christians have the right—indeed, the God-given duty—to disobey the state whenever the government forbids what the Lord commands or commands what the Lord forbids. Just as saints such as Daniel disobeyed the king when the king ordered the citizens of his empire to pray to him, so must we place our obedience to God above our obedience to the state (Dan. 6).
Certainly, it is not always simple to determine whether the laws of a state actually forbid what God commands or command what God forbids. Nevertheless, the principle of obeying the Creator before the state remains. Christ is Lord even over the state, and when the state rejects His lordship, Christians must nevertheless continue to submit to His law.
Coram Deo
Choosing to obey Christ when His commands conflict with the state’s may earn us the designation of criminals or traitors. But that should not dissuade us from submitting first to Christ’s commandments before we do what the government says. Let us pray for discernment so that we might rightly know when and when not to obey the state, and let us encourage one another to be faithful to Christ even when the state disallows it.
Passages for Further Study
Exodus 32
Daniel 3
John 14:15–17
Revelation 14:6–13
Ping
Step one: this is a Christian Nation. It was founded as such and it’s Founders specified as much as “it being inappropriate to any other.”. Live by Christian values or leave.
Thank you for posting this. This truth is too often deliberately suppressed and substituted for unthinking, ungodly submission to the State.
See tagline.
Good, Godly preachers will too often either preach directly against reacting/responding to "the state" or will just shy away from it completely ...
Like they do 1 Cor 7:5;
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
Thank you for posting this...next question, what does disobedience look like? What are the moral limits?
I agree. I see that dereliction and error more and more frequently. Some pastor commented recently about a FEMA apparatchik urging him and other pastors to promote exactly this kind of apostate submission.
Nice idea however, the US, like Canada, is no longer a ‘Christian’ country. Believers are outnumbered, even amongst those that claim to be Christian. How about instead, bringing citizens to the Cross by showing them Jesus in you? If all who go by the Name of Jesus did this, THEN your ‘Step 1’ could be accomplished, otherwise your comments are nothing but complaint and accomplish nothing.
I don't think God wants to give us a class and nine point notes ...
Come, let us reason together.
The Jihadi's have made it almost illegal to obey God, and most definitely very dangerous.
“when the state’s commands conflict with God’s commands, believers must follow the Lord.”
“Choosing to obey Christ when His commands conflict with the state’s may earn us the designation of criminals or traitors.”
In 1612, my ancestor was the last martyr to be burned at the stake in England for “heresy”, for following the Lord instead of the state. (He recanted his beliefs once to avoid martyrdom, but later re-canted his recant — and was burned.)
The way things are going in America, and especially if Hillary is decreed President, it’s possible, even probable, that we’ll find ourselves having to make hard decisions. I hope and pray I would be strong enough to do the right thing.
“I don’t think God wants to give us a class and nine point notes ...”
Just what do you think the Bible is? I ask a legitimate question to get opinions...I kind of got yours, but I am focusing more on our own government rather than Islams...
So, in your opinion...if you will, what do you think about what the limits are to disobedience to man relative to God’s laws? Is there a case for moral violence? Such as World War ll for example...
I think we are both correct. Certainly more believers the better but one does not need to believe to agree to live by those values.
That being said, I believe the principle of warfare is still valid and apropos today (WW2, f'rinstance ... and others)
I think if people are lied to, and led to believe they are Godly justified to kill another (warfare), there is no blood on their hands
Ezekial 3:16 - 21
16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
We don't have much in that nine point outline but we DO have for ensample God's Word.
We need to be careful we don’t allow our morality to be used against us. Think Cloward/Piven/Alinsky.
We need to remember the Samaritan was traveling in a FOREIGN country. The man he helped was the native. I am fairly certain had the roles been reversed he would have helped the victim return to the bosom of his family.
I think the image we need to cast as a nation is that of Jesus as well. When folks want what we have as a nation we should make it clear that the peace and joy, otherwise known as the Blessings of Liberty can be had right where they are. There is no question but that allowing them to come here and bring all their dysfunctional behavior and belief has to end.
That would require the majority to abide by Christian values in every country in the West. Your original comment could have been successfully implemented 75-100 years ago.
Unfortunately, the Communists started to noticeably infiltrate most post secondary institutions in the late 30’s, a follow on to the ‘Enlightenment’ and a Europe that was weary and staggering from four years of war and the loss of tens of millions of citizen soldiers. Each side claimed that ‘God was with them’ (’Gott mit uns’ on der Kaiser’s soldiers belt buckles) so to many, they doubted the goodness of God, blaming Him, rather than the free will afforded to men who made very poor choices leading to a horrible war. Many believed that there was no God or, like the American Deist and President, T. Jefferson, that God was an impersonal God who didn’t care or intervene in world affairs.
The commies infiltrated schools of journalism, economics and teacher’s colleges, so as to spread their lies, among such lies were/are ‘all religions are equal’ and ‘all people are essentially good, that religion turns them into evil people’ and ‘Man can establish a peaceful, fair world’.
As the majority in all Western countries (INCLUDING the US) are non-Christian, or at least choose church teachings as ‘therapy’ instead of ‘lifestyle’, society falls prey to the commie teachings that start in grade school.
Even if Trump is elected, it will only be a temporary reprieve from a slide into paganism, much as Stephen Harper’s period of leadership in Canada. It is ONLY through the spread of Christ in the West, that the trend toward paganism and self-centredness will be reversed.
FWIW, communism is a fantastic theory, in that each person shares equally and helps those who are less fortunate. It does, in fact, generally mimic the human interactions within the early Apostolic church (excluding Ananias and Sapphira). A wonderful idea except Marx left God completely out of the picture. He also assumed that selfishness and pride could be defeated in man BY man, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, existing from the beginning of time, in every human that has ever lived! Marx should have been put into a mental institute, as his theory is truly insane and had/has no merit nor evidence! Communism can never work because God is excluded.
Likewise, unfettered capitalism will result in unnecessary deaths and economic enslavement of the poorest and least able, it is the love of ‘mammon’. Fortunately, capitalism’s reign was checked by populations that largely practiced Christianity. Smith’s ‘invisible hand’ works better to describe ‘mercantilism’ than the oligarchical capitalism, or crony capitalism that is today’s model. Evidence? Bhopal, Ford Pinto, Chev Corvair, the many deals done by the Clinton Foundation, etc.
Thanks knarf, I am torn on this subject and am asking God’s guidance. You make very salient points in which I happen to naturally believe and agree in, but I am also searching to see what God expects of me. I owe God my life in a very real sense...he saved me from death in a miraculous way and I try to serve Him as best I can...realizing that each day is a precious gift from Him. I suppose if the time arrives I will have my answer and pray to act according to His will.
When you can't, when they won't live in peace with you, that is the line.
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[i] to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Sounds like a call for self-defense.
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