Posted on 04/14/2016 6:55:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
Ping
+1
There have been many bad Popes.
There has NEVER been a Pope this devious and weasely.
When it comes to adultery and gay marriage, etc., he JUST CAN’T KEEP HIS HANDS OUT OF THE COOKIE JAR.
Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace.
applies to homosexual unions as well as the divorced and remarried.
Could you name one pope (before VII of course) that wrote heretical ideas in an official papal document?
No. This is a first.
Well as you know I don’t believe he’s the first since Vatican II, but the fact that he writes such heretical, anti-Catholic Faith views in official papal documents makes it clear that he isn’t just a “bad pope”.
And we’ve had an unbroken string of them, starting with Roncali.
BTW, calling Roncali a saint is the ultimate Knife in the back. He did more to destroy the Catholic Church than all the Roman emperors combined. Vatican II destroyed the faith with its watered down Catholicism and the rampant abuses it engendered.
There are two reasons for thinking someone should not be canonized: 1) It was bad for the Church to do so; 2) One does not think it’s safe to say the person is in Heaven.
I don’t think it was a good idea to canonize Roncalli or Wojtyla, because I don’t think the Church should canonize Popes who were a disaster. Roncalli called the Council, and Wojtyla was totally, totally negligent when it came to the appointment of bishops. And there’s Assisi.
But the Church claims infallibility when it comes to canonizations. That means that I can think neither Pope should have been canonized, but NOT because I think they are in Hell!
+1
That is if the canonizations are defined by a true pope.
You and I are just not qualified—by learning or by office—to reach a determination that Francis is not Pope. All that takes place in a universe of which you and I are not members.
I can think that Wojtyla and Roncalli were not great Popes, and should not have been canonized, which is what I do think, WITHOUT thinking they are in Hell. No one on earth is authorized to make that judgment.
If you believe that JPII was canonized by a true pope and therefore an infallible declaration, then you can not disagree with it.
You missed my point.
Canonization means that JPII is in heaven. I cannot hold that he is not in heaven. In that sense, I cannot “disagree” with his canonization.
I can still think that he should not have been canonized, on the grounds that he was not a great Pope. In that sense, I can “disagree” with his canonization.
No, I did not miss your point. I have never heard that we Catholics can choose to say or believe, “I don’t think that this particular person should have been canonized”. I have never heard of Catholics ever been able to choose one of the previous canonized saints in the history of the Church and say “The pope was wrong to canonize him/her”.
Please share Church teaching that states Catholics can “disagree” with the Pope on matters such as canonizations.
You have completely missed my point.
Catholics are NOT at liberty to say: “The Pope canonized JPII, but I think JPII is in Hell.”
Catholics are at liberty to say: “The Pope canonized JPII, but I think it was a bad idea because JPII is not an example of a great Pope.”
I HAVE NOT MISSED YOUR POINT.
Provide Church teaching that says a Catholic can say this about canonizations:
“The Pope canonized JPII, but I think it was a bad idea because JPII is not an example of a great Pope.”
The Church doesn’t teach things like: “Catholics are free to disagree with the Pope about X, Y, and Z.”
What the Church DOES do is teach to what the Pope’s authority extends, and to what it does not extend.
Are you familiar with the definition of Papal Infallibility from Vatican I?
Yes, I am.
There have been plenty discussion that Catholics don’t have to agree with the pope on economic matters, prudential judgments, etc. Therefore there should be teaching out there somewhere that supports this.
Where is the support that Catholics can decide the Pope was wrong in determining who gets canonized, a matter of faith and morals?
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