Hovering over Rome: The Ghost of Martin Luther

The Catholic World Report ^ | March 16, 2016 | Allessandra Nucci

[CraigEsq]

Are you condemning the antisemitic comment that your Lutheran colleague wrote, in post 19 " Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism. ," not a single one of you ... or standing by it ... ?

Sorry for the late response, but I do not condone such language. Care to answer my question now?

[af_vet_1981]

Sorry for the late response, but I do not condone such language.

Is not condone synonymous for condemn ?

Care to answer my question now?

I have no idea what is in a book of concord; does it mention Judaism ?

I have a very good idea what Lutherans confess on this thread. It seems quite at odds with what the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod teach about Judaism on this web page. Thus I ask again if the Lutherans here are condemning post 19 by a denominational colleague who wrote "Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism."

We in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod “condemn any and all discrimination against others on account of race or religion or any coercion on that account and pledge ourselves to work and witness against such sins.”

[Partisan Gunslinger]

I have a very good idea what Lutherans confess on this thread. It seems quite at odds with what the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod teach about Judaism on this web page. Thus I ask again if the Lutherans here are condemning post 19 by a denominational colleague who wrote "Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism."

You might want to be careful about opening this can of worms. There is a lot pope quotes and actions against Jews as well:

POPE CLEMENT VIII: "All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. They have brought many unfortunate people into a state of poverty, especially the farmers, working class people and the very poor. Then as now Jews have to be reminded intermittently anew that they were enjoying rights in any country since they left Palestine and the Arabian desert, and subsequently their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live."

SYLVESTER I. Condemned Jewish anti-Christian activity.

GREGORY VIII. Forbade Jews to have power over Christians, in a letter to Alfonso VI of Castile.

GREGORY IX. Condemned the TALMUD as containing "every kind of vileness and blasphemy against Christian doctrine."

BENEDICT XIII. His Bull on the Jewish issue (1450) declared: "The heresies, vanities and errors of the TALMUD prevent their knowing the truth."

JULIUS III. Contra Hebreos retinentes libros (1554) ordered the TALMUD burned "everywhere" and established a strict censorship over Jewish genocidal writings - an order that has never been rescinded and which presumably is still binding upon Catholics.

PAUL IV. Cum nimis absurdim (1555) promulgated immediately after his coronation, was a powerful condemnation of Jewish usury. It embodies a model legal code to curb Jewish power that was recommended to all communities.

PIUS V. Hebraeorum gens (1569) expelled all Jews from the Papal States.

GREGORY XIII. Declared that Jews: "continue to plot horrible crimes" against Christians "with daily increasing audacity."

BENEDICT XIV. Quo Primum 1751) denounced Jewish control of commerce and "systematical despoliation" of the Christian through usury.

PIUS VII. Known generally as an 'anti-Semite' by Jewish writers.

[CraigEsq]

“I have a very good idea what Lutherans confess on this thread.”

So one sentence in one post is good enough for that? Hmmm...

“Thus I ask again if the Lutherans here are condemning post 19 by a denominational colleague who wrote ‘Luther agitated against the demonic cult known as Judaism’.”

Is it burden to condemn everything someone else says? I do not believe Judaism is a demonic cult, and I feel it was inappropriate to do so. But reviewing the posts by the poster, and without reading his mind, I also think it quite clear he was not intending to be anti-semetic.

“I have no idea what is in a book of concord; does it mention Judaism?”

Taking at face value and in good faith (though simply clicking on the link would have given all you need to know about it), the Book of Concord was written mostly during the reformation (though the ancient creeds also form a part of it) explaining the beliefs of the “Lutheran” church in comparison to the Roman Catholic Church. It is accepted completely (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) or to some extent (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) by Lutheran churches as faithful statements of Christian doctrine.

Does it mention Judaism? Well I can do a search on that page same as you, and the Jews get a couple of brief mentions, apparently nothing significant. Which is understandable.

“It seems quite at odds with what the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod teach about Judaism on this web page.”

Okay, so then why such ado about what one poster posted on one thread somewhere on the internet?

[af_vet_1981]

Okay, so then why such ado about what one poster posted on one thread somewhere on the internet?

Because you are the first, and only, (apparent) Lutheran who condemned the antisemitic post when you wrote, "I do not believe Judaism is a demonic cult, and I feel it was inappropriate to do so. "

[af_vet_1981]

You did not source your quotes and material, a cursory reading of which does not show a blueprint for the Holocaust which Luther published, and which Luther's nation, the Germans, implemented with devastating consequences.

All nations are subject to the Messianic Judgment. The can of worms defense strategy is unlikely to fare better than the when did we defense.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Little children, let no man deceive you:he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five, Protestant verses thirty one to forty six,
First John, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verse seven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine

[terycarl]

Renowned Catholic archaeologist Milik confirmed Peter's ossuary in Jerusalem. The rest is biblical.

I have read of Father Miliks theories and while they are certainly interesting,they are in no way conclusive. I believe they came about in the 1950's or thereabout and I'm pretty sure that they have been or are being researched for their validity.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

You did not source your quotes and material, a cursory reading of which does not show a blueprint for the Holocaust which Luther published, and which Luther's nation, the Germans, implemented with devastating consequences.

It wasn't Luther's writings that caused the Holocaust. You're being silly. Luther's book on this fell into obscurity in the centuries leading up to Hitler, it was not the manifesto of antiSemitism. There were plenty of Germans (and popes, as my quotes show) that were thinking the same on their own on this.

All nations are subject to the Messianic Judgment. The can of worms defense strategy is unlikely to fare better than the when did we defense.

Oh so all the popes just loved the Jews and Talmudic Judaism? My quotes from them show otherwise.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

I have read of Father Miliks theories and while they are certainly interesting,they are in no way conclusive. I believe they came about in the 1950's or thereabout and I'm pretty sure that they have been or are being researched for their validity.

Oh yeah, it's a funny story. After Peter's ossuary was found in Jerusalem and confirmed by Milik, the Vatican immediately came up with a set of bones they found in a wall and were Peter's, as they said. Well, on further study it was a collection of animal bones and the bone of a woman. So the Vatican went back and immediately found another set of bones somewhere there, that the pope's personal archaeologist confirmed was Peter's, but the archaeologist wasn't named and no one else is allowed to study them. Now that's desperate. lol

[af_vet_1981]

It wasn't Luther's writings that caused the Holocaust. You're being silly. Luther's book on this fell into obscurity in the centuries leading up to Hitler, it was not the manifesto of antiSemitism. There were plenty of Germans (and popes, as my quotes show) that were thinking the same on their own on this.

Demonizing the Jews: Luther and the Protestant Church in Nazi Germany

The acquiescence of the German Protestant churches in Nazi oppression and murder of Jews is well documented. In this book, Christopher J. Probst demonstrates that a significant number of German theologians and clergy made use of the sixteenth-century writings by Martin Luther on Jews and Judaism to reinforce the racial antisemitism and religious anti-Judaism already present among Protestants. Focusing on key figures, Probst’s study makes clear that a significant number of pastors, bishops, and theologians of varying theological and political persuasions employed Luther’s texts with considerable effectiveness in campaigning for the creation of a “de-Judaized” form of Christianity. Probst shows that even the church most critical of Luther’s anti-Jewish writings reaffirmed the antisemitic stereotyping that helped justify early Nazi measures against the Jews.

You have still not sourced your quotes.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

Hitler and the Nazis hated Christians as well. It's well-known they were into the Tibet religions. Luther had no effect on the hierarchy of the Nazis.

You have still not sourced your quotes.

Well, one of the worst was Julius III. An account of his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property is in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia pp391-392.

Should pope Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order that put such suffering on the Jews?

[af_vet_1981]

Luther had no effect on the hierarchy of the Nazis.

Nuremberg Trials testimony:



Witness, what aims did you pursue with your speeches and your articles in Der Stuermer?

STREICHER: The speeches and articles which I wrote were meant to inform the public on a question which appeared to me one of the most important questions. I did not intend to agitate or inflame but to enlighten.

DR. MARX: Apart from your weekly journal, and particularly after the Party came into power, were there any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way?

STREICHER: Anti-Semitic publications have existed in Germany for centuries. A book I had, written by Dr. Martin Luther, was, for instance, confiscated. Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book The Jews and Their Lies, Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them...

[Partisan Gunslinger]

There was a lot of Protestants in Germany, it was a desperate attempt of using Luther at his trial to get protestant sympathy to weasel out of his crimes.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

You avoided my question, should Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property?

[af_vet_1981]

You avoided my question,

False statement on your part

The Reformation and the consequent strictness in enforcing the censorship of books reacted on the condition of the Jews in so far as converts from Judaism eagerly displayed their zeal for their new faith by denouncing rabbinical literature, and especially the Talmud, as hostile to Christianity. Consequently Pope Julius III. issued an edict which demanded the burning of the Talmud (1553) and prohibited the printing of it by Christians. In Rome a great many copies were publicly burned (Sept. 9, 1553). The worst was yet to come. Paul IV. (1555-59), in his bull "Cum nimis absurdum" (July 12, 1555), not only renewed all canonical restrictions against the Jews—as those prohibiting their practising medicine among Christians, employing Christian servants, and the like—but he also restricted them in their commercial activity, forbade them to have more than one synagogue in any city, enforced the wearing of the yellow hat, refused to permit a Jew to be addressed as "signor," and finally decreed that they should live in a ghetto. The last measure was carried out in Rome with unrelenting cruelty.

should Julius III be declared an anti-pope for his Nazi-like order to burn Jewish property?

No, I don't think so; perhaps you (or I) don't understand the term anti-pope. He should be judged by King Messiah for what he did and did not do, just as I posted previously with Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five.

[af_vet_1981]

There was a lot of Protestants in Germany, it was a desperate attempt of using Luther at his trial to get protestant sympathy to weasel out of his crimes.

Do you know what Kristallnacht was ?
Did you know the Nazis implemented it on Luther's birthday ?

The horrors of Kristallnacht were a moment of rejoicing for Bishop Martin Sasse, head of the Protestant church of Thuringia. A night that brought riots, looting, beatings and widespread destruction of synagogues and Jewish property seemed to fulfill Sasse’s hopes: the Nazi regime was finally ridding the Reich of Jews.

The strong action of the Reich against the Jews made Sasse feel he could take strong action to carry out his own project: ridding the church of Jewishness. Not only were baptized Jewish pastors, religion teachers and organists to be fired and baptized Jews excluded from church congregations; not only were pastors forbidden to minister to baptized Jews; not only was the Old Testament no longer to be presented in church to couples celebrating their fiftieth wedding anniversary; not only was knowledge of biblical Hebrew henceforth eliminated as a requirement for ordination; now, any traces of Jewishness in the New Testament, liturgy, music and theology of the church were to be hunted down, exposed and eradicated.

Bishop Sasse was a leading figure in the German Christian movement, an alliance of pastors, bishops, theologians and lay people, formed in 1932, who supported Hitler and sought to create a nazified, unified German Protestant church, one that was manly, free of doctrinal control and anti-Semitic. As a faction within the Protestant church of Germany, not a separate sect, the German Christian movement eventually attracted between a quarter and a third of Protestant church members. Enthusiastically pro-Nazi, the movement sought to demonstrate its support for Hitler by organizing itself after the model of the Nazi Party, placing a swastika on the altar next to the cross, giving the Nazi salute at its rallies and celebrating Hitler as sent by God.

By 1938 the German Christian movement dominated most theological faculties in the Reich, controlled most of the regional Protestant churches and had sympathizers at the national level, including in the Reich Ministry of Church Affairs and in Reich Bishop Ludwig Mueller.

Still, their anti-Semitic passions were not requited. During 1938 Germans saw increasing militarization at all levels of society and a rise of anti-Semitic propaganda. The German Christian leadership held a series of meetings to plan a Christian response to Nazi anti-Semitism.

On November 15, just days after the pogrom, Bishop Sasse distributed a pamphlet entitled Martin Luther on the Jews: Away with Them! (Martin Luther über die Juden: Weg mit Ihnen!), in which he reprinted excerpts from Luther’s notorious 1543 pamphlet, Against the Jews and Their Lies, urging the destruction of Jewish property. Kristallnacht, he claimed, was fulfilling the goals of Luther; the Nazis were acting as Christians.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

No, I don't think so; perhaps you (or I) don't understand the term anti-pope.

Anti-pope, anti-Semite, whatever. I don't care about the rules about anti-popes.

He should be judged by King Messiah for what he did and did not do, just as I posted previously with Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five.

Okay, why do you judge Luther as an anti-Semite for his nazi-like statements, and not pope Julius III for his nazi-like actions? Luther just talked, Julius actually acted.

[Partisan Gunslinger]

Do you know what Kristallnacht was ? Did you know the Nazis implemented it on Luther's birthday ?

A lot of things happen on birthdays. I'm surprised they didn't implement it on Julius' birthday. lol

Again, the Nazis hated Christians but still they needed the support of Christians and Catholics, so they modeled a lot of things from the Catholic way of doing things and tried to bring in the protestants too. Hitler kept Pius XII close until the end, to the point the Catholic ratlines helped escaping nazis. No different than Obama claiming to be Christian, Hitler used the same strategy.

[Jacob Kell]

Anti-Semitism was non uncommon in “Christian” Europe, including Germany, and existed independent of Luther. Google Johann Eck. He was a Catholic theologican and pretty anti-semitic himself.