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To: marshmallow

No.

I think you are brainwashed.

The point I was making is that the Church makes mistakes from time to time just like every other human institution.

The Church has been all over the map on celibacy. Although I am no fan of the current Pope, he has made the following points about celibacy:

1) The policy is considered a discipline, not a dogma or a doctrine.

2) The policy was instituted many centuries after the founding of the Church.

3) The policy is always subject to change.

All true of course. And I would like to add the policy is not universally applied.


46 posted on 12/11/2015 12:17:02 PM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines; marshmallow
I think you are brainwashed.

I see nothing in post #45 to indicate marshmallow is "brainwashed". I think you should explain or apologize/retract.

47 posted on 12/11/2015 12:25:11 PM PST by BipolarBob (I drink rum before noon because I'm a pirate not an alcoholic.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
You've consistently refused to discuss the theology of this issue and insist on referring to it as mere "policy" and "invented" as if this is some human construct of convenience, much like a the platform or "policy" of a political party, subject to change on a whim. What follows is a discussion of the theology of this issue for those whose minds may be open and wondering. Much better explanations are available through Church documents and writings of saints and doctors.

Firstly, a celibate priesthood is indeed a discipline as you have stated but that discipline, contrary to what you have stated, was not ....I repeat....was not "invented" nor is it a "policy". It has deep theological underpinnings.

St. Paul compares the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his Church. That relationship is therefore spousal and for this reason, the Church is often referred to as the "Bride of Christ".

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. or this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church."
Eph 5: 24-32

The relationship of Christ to the Church, therefore determines the relationship of the priest to the Church. In Catholic theology, the priest is referred to as an alter Christus, or "other Christ". Therefore the priest too, just as with Christ, partakes of a spousal relationship to the Church. The discipline of celibacy, therefore, is an acknowledgment of this fact and an outward sign of it.

Christ gave Himself totally for the Church as Paul says above. He "delivered Himself up for it". The priest, likewise, delivers himself up for the Church in the form of an exclusive spousal relationship.

Likewise, in the Apocalypse, John refers to the Church as a "bride":

And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev; 21:2

And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Rev; 21;9

This is how the Church understands the unique office of the priesthood. As always, the Church takes into account traditions, cultures and circumstances and dispensations are granted since it is indeed a discipline. However, when we understand the theology which underlies this discipline, it becomes clear that this is indeed "for the kingdom of heaven", as Jesus teaches in Matthew's gospel and not some sort of half-baked quick fix to some temporal problem dreamed up in the Middle Ages.

For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother' s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.
Matt 19:12

Likewise, continence in Scripture, is always associated with an exclusive dedication to God:

"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser; she was far advanced in years, and had lived with her husband seven years from her virginity. And she was a widow until fourscore and four years; who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day".
Luke 2: 36-37

This theology spread throughout the Church and developed just as other theology has; e.g the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, since the Church is a living body.

Finally, the entire, rich monastic tradition of both Eastern and Western Churches draws heavily on this theology. St. Anthony the Great and the Desert Fathers practiced this discipline long before "the Middle Ages". The rest of the Church just took a little longer to catch on.

57 posted on 12/11/2015 3:29:28 PM PST by marshmallow
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