Posted on 10/17/2015 8:41:38 AM PDT by ealgeone
Paul went to Jerusalem to meet with the “pilars” of the Church, to meet with those who had know Jesus in the Flesh. Choose what words you want but the point is that he needed to show that he was not preaching a false gospel. As for Mary, even the Protestant Reformers believed in her perpetual virginity. Your interpretation is not widely held among Protestants until the 18th century.
It was 14 years later that James, Peter, and John recognized Paul's appointment by the Lord.
In either case, Paul was not in need of validation by anyone other than Christ which he had.
Regarding Mary....
The Greek, regardless of time or denomination, rules out Mary being a perpetual virgin.
Galatians 1:19 is clear that Paul met with James, the brother of the Lord.
Peter was not described in this manner. So please, no appeal to the use of the word brother as a fellow believer in this context
The Greek for "the Lord" is in the genitive case which indicates possession. The word for brother, ἀδελφὸν, is singular matching the number of τοῦ Κυρίου which is also singular. In the Greek, the genitive case usually follows the word it is modifying. (Basics of Biblical Greek, Mounce, p 43)
In this case it is modifying brother.
τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Κυρίου the brother of the Lord.
There is no other way to understand this in the Greek.
Context is your key to this verse...as all others.
One of the main causes of poor exegesis is not understanding the Greek.
“You are aware not all visions are from God....right?”
You are aware that if it was REALLY Mary than only God could have made it happen....right?
I realize many anti-Catholics aren’t good students of logic, but if it was “real” - meaning REALLY Mary, REALLY appearing to Juan Diego - then only God could make that happen for Mary had entered heaven long before then.
“Did something happen at Guadalupe? Yes.”
Yes, and it was REAL.
“Was it in line with the Word? No.”
Actually, it was. Hence, millions embraced Christ and Christianity because of it.
“Because it told the people to rely upon a false Mary.”
The only thing false is your statement there. Mary acknowledged who God was: “Know my son, my much beloved, that I am the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God who is the Author of life, the Creator of all things, the Lord of heaven and earth, present everywhere.” Why would a “false Mary” acknowledge the true God to a Christian?
“BTW...I’m not a protestant either. I’m a Christian.”
A Protestant Christian. It doesn’t matter what you call yourself. A Protestant is a Protestant. Period. That’s REAL.
Pretty big if you're hanging onto there.
I realize many anti-Catholics aren’t good students of logic, but if it was “real” - meaning REALLY Mary, REALLY appearing to Juan Diego - then only God could make that happen for Mary had entered heaven long before then.
Again, a pretty big if you're hanging onto. With the super powers that roman catholicism has granted to Mary would she not be able to do this on her own??
Why do I ask this? Because according to Catholicism she is the queen of Heaven, she has the ability to answer a vast multitude of prayers, she can grant salvation to who she wishes and tells Jesus so and so are saved, etc.
The following quotes from the website below substantiate my statement.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18b.htm
Hell is not the lot of any true client of Mary for whom she prays even once, and for whom she says to her Son that she wishes him to be saved . . . It is sufficient that you desire our salvation, O Mary, and we cannot help but be saved. St. Anselm
So if Mary gives you the thumbs up, you're in???? This is in the Word where? Oh, right….it’s not.
He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Pope Pius XI
And here we thought that is in Christ and Christ alone that keeps us from tasting death.
What will it cost you, O Mary, to hear our prayer? What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, and you alone, O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. Pope Pius XI
Really?? None of what is said in these quotes is Scriptural and is blasphemous. It is why Christians reject roman catholic claims regarding this false narrative of Mary.
Now contrast those lies with the Word itself.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:21-24 NASB).
Regarding how and to Who we are to pray…..notice Who it is who keeps us from evil.
9“Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11‘Give us this day our daily bread. 12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors 13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil (Matthew 6:9-13 NASB).
The observant reader will note the complete lack of reference to Mary in these passages.
You would be accurate to say millions embraced roman catholicism which with its reliance upon Mary for salvation is not Christian.
Again, would the Mary of the Bible command a church to be built in her honor and make the following statement:...notice all of the I statements. All the attention is on this vision.....not on Christ.
I greatly desire that a church be built in my honor, in which I will show my love, compassion, and protection.
I am your Mother full of mercy and love for you and all those who love Me, trust in Me, and have recourse to Me.
I will hear their complaints and I will comfort their affliction and their sufferings.
So that I might show all My love, go now to the bishop in Mexico City and tell him that I am sending you to make known to him the great desire I have to see a church.
This vision, no doubt seen by many, is not Biblical. It does not point to Jesus as the way of salvation.
And that, in the final analysis, is the truth.
Nothing Our Lady has is her own, it all comes from her Son. What is this bizarre problem protestants have with their mothers anyhow?
I am aware of the false narrative roman catholicism has given regarding Mary however.
BTW....where did she get the title, "Our Lady?" Haven't come across that in the Word yet.
Just as you will often see Catholics refer to "Our Lord" it's to protect the holy name from misuse. These days many Catholics have been infected with the Protestant spirit of our society and throw the holy name of Jesus around like it's any other word and not sacred and powerful.
When does the Word refer to Mary as holy? She is a sinner saved by grace as noted in the Word.
“Pretty big if you’re hanging onto there.”
Nope. Not at all. YOU after all already suggested it could be real. You wrote, “They may be real....” Logic. Try it sometime.
“With the super powers that roman catholicism has granted to Mary would she not be able to do this on her own??”
Here again we see an example of an anti-Catholic can repeatedly - for years - attack the Catholic faith and apparently not know what he is attacking. The only one who grants Mary anything is God. And with Him, Matthew 19:26.
“Why do I ask this?”
Well, it certainly doesn’t seem to be part of any logical reasoning on your part.
“Because according to Catholicism she is the queen of Heaven,...”
Her Son - King of Kings, makes her what she is.
“... she has the ability to answer a vast multitude of prayers,”
No, she has no ability other than what God gives her.
“she can grant salvation to who she wishes”
No. She intercedes on our behalf and her intercession is powerful - James 5:16, but only God grants salvation. Salvation (Christ) came into the world through Mary as she bore Him. Christ still works through her for our salvation applying what He won for us on the cross.
“and tells Jesus so and so are saved, etc.”
No. Jesus saves - His very name means salvation after all. But He chose to save through Mary in His incarnation. This is why there is a quote, apparently drawn from St. Anselm, posted in this regard online: “There is no reconciliation, O Mary, except that which thou didst conceive in thy virginity, no justification save that which thou didst nurture inviolately in thy womb, no salvation but that which thou didst immaculately bear. Therefore, O Lady, thou art the mother of justification and of the justified, thou art the begetter of reconciliation and of the reconciled, the Mother of salvation and of the saved. O blessed assurance, O refuge without fear! The Mother of God is our mother, too! The mother of Him in Whom alone we hope, Whom alone we fear, is our mother. We have for our mother the mother of Him Who alone can save us, Who alone will be our judge!”
And I see you cut out the sentence before Mary said she wanted a Church built there. Well, of course, you cut it out. Probably because it said this: “Know my son, my much beloved, that I am the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God who is the Author of life, the Creator of all things, the Lord of heaven and earth, present everywhere.” Why would a “false Mary” acknowledge the true God to a Christian?
Pretty big if you're hanging onto there.
I see context is not your friend nor is following a conversation.
Logic...try it sometime.
“And yet, Mary in the Bible never refers to herself in the manner you claim nor in the manner the vision speaks.”
And Jesus never called Himself “Jesus Christ” but we all do call Him that. THAT does appear in the New Testament, however. So was Jesus wrong to not refer to Himself as “Jesus Christ” then? And if you think what I just said is absurd it is no more absurd than what you just said.
“I see context is not your friend nor is following a conversation.”
Either it was real or it wasn’t. Don’t now claim it can be real and unreal at the same time. Logic. Try it sometime.
And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:37 NASB
However, the catholic cannot point to such a Scripture regarding Mary with the titles you cited in your post #49.
So what did he see?
The real question to be answered is was it from God....does it correspond to what has been revealed in His Word?
In 1 John 1:4, we are told to test the spirits to see if they are from God.
Examining what this spirit has proclaimed does not line up with any Biblical teaching as noted in the original article of this thread.
The message of the vision as reported by queenoftheamericasguild.org
"Know for certain, least of my sons, that I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God through whom everything lives, the Lord of all things near and far, the Master of heaven and earth. It is my earnest wish that a temple be built here to my honor. Here I will demonstrate, I will exhibit, I will give all my love, my compassion, my help and my protection to the people. I am your merciful mother, the merciful mother of all of you who live united in this land, and of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who seek me, of those who have condfidence in me. Here I will hear their weeping, their sorrow, and will remedy and alleviate all their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes."
Contrast this with Romans 8:31-39 (NASB)
The observant reader will note the emphasis on God and Christ.....no Mary mentioned.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36Just as it is written, “FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.” 37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Again, the observant reader will note the emphasis of the vision saying it would alleviate their multiple sufferings, necessities and misfortunes in contrast to what we see revealed in Romans and the rest of the Word. The emphasis is on what the vision would do....not Christ.
No where does it point to salvation through Jesus Christ as the Mary of the Bible would emphasize as we've been told by catholics....do what He says.
Jesus says to follow Him. Believe in Him. Have faith in Him.
There is no mention of relying upon Mary for salvation, answered prayer, etc by the Son of Mary in any of His statements in the Word.
This apparition that appeared is a false one when compared to the Word of God.
“And yet, Mary in the Bible never refers to herself in the manner you claim nor in the manner the vision speaks.”
So you expect people after they have reached the glory of heaven to only speak as if they still lived in first century Israel? Seriously, that has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.
“Per the account of Juan Diego he saw something. A young Aztec girl....not a Jewish girl as we know Mary in the Bible.”
That has to be one of the most meaningless attempts at a point I have ever seen. If God can speak through a burning bush and change bread into His flesh, He can have a woman appear any way He wishes - especially if He’s interested in using that woman to help convert millions of Aztecs.
“The real question to be answered is was it from God....does it correspond to what has been revealed in His Word?”
And the answer is yes, yes it does. For from it 2,000,000 Mexicans came to know Christ.
“In 1 John 1:4, we are told to test the spirits to see if they are from God.”
It was tested 2,000,000 times. It has proved to be from God.
“There is no mention of relying upon Mary for salvation, answered prayer, etc by the Son of Mary in any of His statements in the Word.”
Doesn’t have to be because God uses Mary anyway. It happens whether you admit it or not.
2,000,000 tests. Passed with flying colors each and every time.
A very large crowd, estimated at between thirty and thirty-five thousand people, assembled that evening as the children began their rosary. After two decades four of them called out and fell to their knees, leaving Fernande, the oldest, in tears because she could see nothing. Mary spoke to Gilberte Voisin, imparting to her what has been seen as the main promise of Beauraing, "I will convert sinners," and then: "Goodbye." To Andree she said: "I am the Mother of God, the Queen of Heaven. Pray always," before disappearing.
Fernande remained kneeling while the other children went inside for questioning, when suddenly, she, and many in the crowd, heard a loud noise like thunder and saw a ball of fire on the hawthorn tree. Mary appeared and spoke to Fernande asking her if she loved her Son and herself; when Fernande replied that she did, the response was: "Then sacrifice yourself for me." At this the Blessed Virgin glowed with extraordinary brilliance and extended her arms, so that the girl could see her golden heart, before saying, "Goodbye," and disappearing.
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/beaurain.html
This apparition is telling these children to kill themselves as a sacrifice for her.
From what we can tell, thankfully they did not kill themselves.
It claims to be the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven. This apparition is elevating itself over God by claiming to be His mother.
This apparition also requested a chapel.
This apparition said it would convert sinners. The Mary of the Bible never makes this claim. We are convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin and need for repentance....not Mary.
Catholics would do well to disavow themselves from these apparitions.
This apparition is telling these children to kill themselves as a sacrifice for her.
No. She was asking that child (and hence anyone else who heard her request) to devote themselves to Her. It's not all that uncommon, many Catholics "consecrate" (or "sacrifice") their lives to Mary. It's just another way of saying they have a devotion to the Blessed Mother.
Remember this was given because the child in question answered "yes" when asked "Do you love my Son?" Devotion to Mary is really devotion to Her Son because she is alive in Him and only through Him. This is just, many times, an unwritten/unsaid assumption or precondition of all devotions to Our Lady. The only reason they are effectual and/or are not idolatry is because in actuality such devotions actually pay homage to God (Jesus), without whom such devotions would be impossible (because indeed Mary would be dead without Jesus) and therefore idolatrous.
All of this is said simply to refute the ridiculous notion that the apparition was asking for the children to "kill themselves". Disagree all you want with the theology as presented in the above paragraphs but don't conclude she wanted them to kill themselves. That just makes you look ridiculous.
Everything It inspires worship and adoration of the created (Mary) rather than the Creator
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