Posted on 03/25/2015 2:25:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Yeah, I think that is the best approach, well put.
Elementary my dear Watson, elementary.
:-)
“The Church” is the body of Christ. It is made up of those who are true believers in Jesus Christ, who is the head (the only head, the Church doesn’t have two heads) of the Church, which is his body. It isn’t a man made institution. It isn’t centered around a denomination of any kind. It isn’t a building. It is centered around Christ and it is empowered by the Holy Spirit. Where two or more are gathered in Jesus Name there He is, in the midst of them. That’s all it takes is two or more gathered in His name to be considered a called out Church. As long as those two are gathered together to worship and learn of Him then His Spirit will be there in a special way.
As the group grows and there is more need for order then elders and a pastor will be appointed and set apart in a special capacity. The pastor will seek God and feed the little flock as a shepherd does. His primary job in life will be to seek God and study the Scriptures, directing the flock from a pure heart.
Beyond this The Apostles were still alive during Bible times. The Apostles were directly called by Jesus Christ. They knew Him and were commissioned by Him personally. They were continued to hear His voice and be instructed by The Holy Spirit. Even Paul on the road to Damascus was personally picked and commissioned by Christ as a leader of the early Church. He heard directly from The Holy Spirit. No leader in The Catholic Church qualifies in these regards. They haven’t heard God speaking to them in a personal way that what He was saying was hearable and completely understandable. They haven’t been picked by Jesus Christ with His audible voice. They function like the rest in the church by trying to do their best with what God has revealed to us through Scripture. Any thing they add onto Scripture hasn’t come from the mouth of God, but their traditions and interpretations which often even contradict Holy Scripture. Scripture doesn’t contradict. They are wrong. They haven’t any special calling to be above the rest of us in the Church. If they contradict Scripture we shouldn’t follow them no matter who they tell us they are. No one will stand before God and be able to say but my Church told me this. Each person stands before God alone and each is responsible to know Him and truth individually. Your Church will not matter.
so, after your author is done with it, the verse is essentially meaningless - extra fluff in the Bible that you guys can dismiss out of hand. Here I thought that “all scripture was God-breathed and useful for instruction in righteousness” ... guess that’s not really true, at least according to you guys.
"the assembly of God the living the pillar and base of the truth"
We can then look at Paul's letter to the Ephesians.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Building on that foundation would be the pillars or the parts that hold up. It would difficult to discount either view imo.
This is not one his better apologetics. Paul most certainly is not referring to the local church, any more than when he said the church was married to Christ in Eph. 5:25, or how he wasted the church of God in Gal. 1:13, but as is usually the case when not specifying a particular church, 1Tim. 1:15 (in the Greek) simply refers to the corporate house of God, the church of the living God being the support of the Truth. Which both "stulos" and "hedraiōma" basically denote, the latter perhaps as foundation, but it is unseen in the LXX or Hellenistic Jewish or secular Greek. And i read that a Gk. edition of Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses also paraphrased it as "pillar and support."
, The church is the body of Christ, the household of faith (cf. Gal. 6:10; 1Pt. 4:17) in which every part works together to edify, evangelize, contend for the Truth, as evangelicals have historically been characterized for doing. (Romans 9:4-5) Yet the visible church is an admixture of tares and wheat.
While there is some ambiguity in this text, and thus RCs compel it to mean what they long to see - that the church must be the infallible standard for Truth above Scripture - it is easy to see that that it what it does not say,
For the church itself established its Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) not the premise of perpetual ensured magisterial infallibility, as per Rome.
And Scripturally an infallible magisterium has never been essential to provide and preserve Truth and faith, and what is said of Israel is what Rome claims for herself: "...because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers..."
Moreover, God has been progressively revealing Truth before the church, and though i have not see Him providing new public doctrinal revelation now, yet He illuminates more from Scripture, revealing Him and His Truth, and His revelation to us will be added to when He returns. (1Jn. 3:2)
In addition, all those who are born again have "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," just as there is "one body, and one Spirit," and "one God and Father of all" as it says in context, as all in the body of Christ have been born again by that one Spirit, by the one basic faith in the Lord of the one gospel, and thus have been baptized into that one body, (1Co. 12:13) and are to be water baptized in identification with their Lord.
True, but they key word is "anything," for i think what it meant is "Should we just accept anything we hear in church as the truth without examining it for Scriptural conformity and warrant?"
And the difference is that while our basis for veracity must rest upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, a faithful RC is not to ascertain the veracity of RC teaching by examination of evidences (for that reason). For to do so would be to doubt the claims of Rome to be the ensured magisterial veracity of Rome by which a RC obtains assurance of Truth.
Also, understand that are re 1Tim. 3:15, we are dealing with the interpretation of RC apologists, to which the author the blog is responding to.
In which, faced with Scriptural argumentation to the contrary of Rome, then besides telling us Rome gave us the Bible, and thus we are to follow her (which logic has an contrary conclusion), the typical recourse is to quote 1Tim. 3:15 as if settling the matter, the premise being that this text means that Rome settles the question of what the Truth is, and thus disallows the private interpretation of Scripture by us to the contrary of Rome. I emphasize that much weight is laid upon this text by RCs.
Yet that text does not provide what RCs extrapolate from it in their private interpretation (unless Rome has officially settled that text), while RCs themselves freely engage in interpretation of Scripture, and of Rome.
It seems to me we don't have enough faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict us in our sins when we err. We see Presbyterian churches falling into heresy and the membership is either trying to withdraw their churches from the organization, or the Born Again members are leaving to find Christian assemblies.
We also have the added advantage of having the God Breathed completed Scriptures as our rule of faith.
I just hope we both get to spend some time together in heaven. I REALLY profit from your contributions to these exchanges.
What a privilege to be able to serve the Lord Christ and thus have some works to lay at His feet, to show gratitude to the great God and Savior who procured so great salvation at so great a cost.
Thanks for the ping!
This may have been addressed by another poster...
For theological purposes,
The ‘truth’ is the Scriptures, inspired by God.
The ‘church’ is the regenerate/born again people.
(”Visible” church is the congregation ;the “invisible” church is the regenerate members).
We strongly agree
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