Our Lady Conqueror of Muslim Hearts: The Virgin Mary's Coming Conquest Of Islam

1) Jesus sits on David's throne, as King of the eternal, redeemed Davidic Kingdom:

Rev. 3:7
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

2) The Queen Mother of the Davidic Kingdom enjoyed an exalted position, sitting on a throne at the right hand of the King:

1 Kings 2:19
The king rose from his throne to meet her, and he bowed down before her. When he sat down on his throne again, the king ordered that a throne be brought for his mother, and she sat at his right hand.
2 Kings 10:13
They said, "We are relatives of Ahaziah, and we have come down to greet the families of the king and of the queen mother."

3) Mary is Jesus' mother, and therefore the Queen Mother of the eternal, redeemed Davidic Kingdom:

Rev. 12:1
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

Just wanted to clear up something here. Mary did not ascend into Heaven. She was assumed into Heaven.

I honestly appreciate that correction because any honest comment made with regard to these issues, even an honest question, seems to excite prejudicial attitudes quickly, inspiring some of the Board's readers to mistakenly assume a strident defense of one side or another of ancient controversies, and such useless emotional reactions retard learning.

For example, in the earlier post I asked, "Isn't the central issue whether the Mother of Jesus physically ascended into Heaven?" - and it seems some readers read both gesture and prosody in the question, which is always a mistake, even if our present culture and language seems to have forgotten that there is never either authentic body language or tone of voice in text communication.

It was an authentic question, not a provocation, and your clarification helped my search for an answer, aiding further research into the doctrine. Again, I thank you.

But these kinds of conclusionary opinions are of little value.
Here are a few examples

(1) “..... Please. You are really trying to spin straw into gold. Peter and the beggar were both on earth, both physically alive. No one had departed.”

Note the inherent illogic here. Thus by your lights Peter’s inter-cessionary powers vanish as soon as he is dead!! While Peter was alive, the crippled beggar could not have obtained his recovery by direct prayer to God.

Onto another absurdity:

(2) “GOD chose NOT to include them in Holy Writ.” Who told you this? John says they could simply not all have all be written down. So your reason contradicts what John provides us? This becomes interesting. It may well be reasonably inferred that John is saying that followers of Christ not depend only on what was written down.

(3) .. There is no evidence anywhere in the passage that the Elders were prayed to by the people on earth. It just shows the prayers of saints being presented as incense to God.

But this is in contradiction to what you wrote on (1) above. Incense in the old Testament was always seen as a form of prayers rising to God.

(4) “No list of traditions”
This is beyond absurd. Christ established a Church, so that His Church will carry out faithfully the oral traditions of the day. Since when should all this be written down when John in 21: 25 explicitly states that many things Chirst said and did were not written down.

>>Infallibility belongs to the Pope (Vicar of Christ) and the body of bishops as a whole<<

That is what Catholics have been duped into believing. The apostles themselves didn't claim "vicar of Christ" after His ascension. Jesus said "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." The blasphemy of Catholicism is a sickening site.

>>“Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).<<

Why do you stop there? Why not finish what He was saying?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.

Earlier in that passage He said to cut off hands and gauge out eyes. Do Catholics follow that part of His speech also? I thought not. Jesus wasn't talking about some hierarchical "magisterium". It saddens me to see so many people fall for the cult of Catholicism.

“Note the inherent illogic here. Thus by your lights Peter’s inter-cessionary powers vanish as soon as he is dead!! While Peter was alive, the crippled beggar could not have obtained his recovery by direct prayer to God.”

.....And yet you put forth this passage of Scripture as if it teaches that believers on earth are to pray to departed believers, when it simply does not teach that. You have an idea you are reading into the passage.

“GOD chose NOT to include them in Holy Writ.” Who told you this? John says they could simply not all have all be written down. “

.....God can do anything. He did not. John says, “I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” The operative word is “suppose.”

.....Your view has a larger problem. Since those things Jesus “did” are unknown, it is a meaningless passage when it comes to supporting your claim. We simply do not have them. Nor do we know what they are.

“It may well be reasonably inferred that John is saying that followers of Christ not depend only on what was written down.”

.....No. A reasonable person would not take that specific passage and make that claim.

“There is no evidence anywhere in the passage that the Elders were prayed to by the people on earth. It just shows the prayers of saints being presented as incense to God. But this is in contradiction to what you wrote on (1) above. Incense in the old Testament was always seen as a form of prayers rising to God.”

Even if we accept your claim above, it falls short of anyone praying to a saint in Scripture.

“No list of traditions” This is beyond absurd. Christ established a Church, so that His Church will carry out faithfully the oral traditions of the day.”

.....Please provide a passage that says the purpose of the church is to carry out oral traditions. When you do that, we have something to talk about. Until then, it is an opinion.

“Since when should all this be written down when John in 21: 25 explicitly states that many things Chirst said and did were not written down.”

John says that the things that are written were written so that we would believe and in believing have eternal life.

Still waiting for that Scriptural proof. So far you’ve posted your closely held hopes and opinions.

Best

So you are reduced to quibble about the word “suppose” against a 2000-year Church history whose theological foundations have been settled not only by the early Church fathers, but by every reputable eminent theologian both Catholic, and non-Catholic scholars and theologians who have converted to Catholicism.

Besides, the word “suppose” is a Protestant invention. It’s not found in the official Catholic Bible which is what counts since it is the Church that infallibly assembled the books of the Bible. Before, the written word was sorted out, there was the one, true, Catholic Church, then, now, and forever.

The Douay-Rheims Bible tells us in John 21: 25

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

The Word of God both written and UNWRITTEN matters, and only the Catholic Church continues to hold its sacred traditions, rituals, and liturgies as embraced by its saints, martyrs, and stigmatists, and all its followers.

This is why today Protestantism has been reduced to a caricature with multiple conflicting beliefs and as many “truths” as there are people who think they can crack open the pages of the Bible and authoritatively thump out God’s Word like the Creflo Dollars, Billy Grahams, Jimmy Swaggarts, Benny Hinns, Rev. Jeremiah Wrights; and very other scam artists of varying degrees who have used scripture to amass personal fortunes for themselves, and families, and in-laws, and sometimes with lethal consequences like the David Koresh’s of this world.

Steelfish (good name)

“So you are reduced to quibble about the word “suppose” against a 2000-year Church history whose theological foundations have been settled not only by the early Church fathers, but by every reputable eminent theologian both Catholic, and non-Catholic scholars and theologians who have converted to Catholicism.”

If we take your version, the operative words are “I think.” No difference.

“Besides, the word “suppose” is a Protestant invention. It’s not found in the official Catholic Bible which is what counts since it is the Church that infallibly assembled the books of the Bible. Before, the written word was sorted out, there was the one, true, Catholic Church, then, now, and forever.”

This is silly friend. God assembled His Word after inspiring and preserving it. The NT is in Greek. Greek words mean things. These things are found in Greek Lexicons.

You may continue to insist on all the Catholic forever stuff. I expect that from a Catholic. It is not historically accurate and I do not accept it, so please understand that it neither supports your truth claim nor adds to it.

“The Word of God both written and UNWRITTEN matters, and only the Catholic Church continues to hold its sacred traditions, rituals, and liturgies as embraced by its saints, martyrs, and stigmatists, and all its followers.”

There is no “unwritten word of God.” There is the Word of God, inspired and unchangeable. There is what is added to it by accretion over the millennia that is not contained in Scripture. None of that is inspired.

Since you’ve not yet supported your truth claim that Christians should pray to departed saints from Scripture, maybe your best bet is just to claim it has nothing to do with Scripture - and it doesn’t - and just come out and say your denomination teaches it based on its own desire to pray to departed people.

“This is why today Protestantism has been reduced to a caricature with multiple conflicting beliefs and as many “truths” as there are people who think they can crack open the pages of the Bible and authoritatively thump out God’s Word like the Creflo Dollars, Billy Grahams, Jimmy Swaggarts, Benny Hinns, Rev. Jeremiah Wrights; and very other scam artists of varying degrees who have used scripture to amass personal fortunes for themselves, and families, and in-laws, and sometimes with lethal consequences like the David Koresh’s of this world.”

Really, your resort to adhominem here and inclusion of a cultist, etc. tells me you have nothing left to add except vindictive arguments and claims that traditions are inspired.

Unless you can come up with any facts, evidence or logic, it appears we’ve reached the bottom of your barrel.

I was responding to your claims that it was Biblical. You never demonstrated this after several back and forths.

The snake handling churches in the Appalachians have one disputed verse to base their practice upon and come right out and tell you the passage.

If it was important to the Christian faith to pray to departed saints, don’t you think God might have at least alluded to it in Scripture? An Apostle or Christian may have been recorded doing it? We would have been commanded or exhorted to do so? Anything before 100 ad - sacred or secular - might have recorded it historically?

Best

I like aMorePerfect Union too.

So here’s a concluding reply.

First, God’s Word is Written and Unwritten (John 21:25). The Church existed BEFORE the books in the Bible were sorted out as God’s Word and were done so under infallible Petrine authority in AD 382 in the Synod of Rome. This infallible authority did not evaporate eleven centuries later with the Reformation.

Second this interpretative Word of God draws it’s meaning from both the written and unwritten words and acts of Christ. John 21:25 makes this clear as crystal. Many of the early Church fathers like St. Clement were contemporaries of John.

Third the sacred oral tradition is a deposit of faith given to the Apostles and their successors- the early Church fathers and successors to Peter.

Fourth, only the Catholic Church can infallibly set forth and interpret God’s Word, or else we’ll have the heresies of Joel Osteen and Billy Graham, and Jim Jones, Cleflo Dollar and the rest….

Fifth, there are enough and more scriptural references on inter-cessionary prayer except that it undercuts the Bible-Christians who like to explain them away even though several leading Protestant theologians have now converted to Catholicism and have said, like Rev. Richard Neuhaus, that they find the fullest expression of Christ in the Catholic Church.

Here are a few examples.

(1) See Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

(2) In 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

(3) In 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11).

(4) Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

(5) God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

OK, you gave it the old college try. Good.

Here is my final response...

“First, God’s Word is Written and Unwritten (John 21:25).”

John 21:25 simply says Christ did a lot more. It doesn’t say this is known to believers. It says he did stuff not recorded in John’s Gospel.

“The Church existed BEFORE the books in the Bible were sorted out as God’s Word”

2/3 were sorted before Christ appeared on earth.
1/3 were debated for a few centuries.

“and were done so under infallible Petrine authority in AD 382 in the Synod of Rome.”

It is the infallible part that is incorrect.

“This infallible authority did not evaporate eleven centuries later with the Reformation.”

Petrine authority never was given and never existed. Yes, I understand Catholics believe it. Hundreds of millions do not.

“Second this interpretative Word of God draws it’s meaning from both the written and unwritten words and acts of Christ. John 21:25 makes this clear as crystal.”

No. What is unwritten is unknown today, unless you can trace it to before 100 ad. Obviously you cannot, or would have posted it along with the list of pauline traditions I’m waiting for.

“Third the sacred oral tradition is a deposit of faith given to the Apostles and their successors- the early Church fathers and successors to Peter.”

No one knows what it is and there is not evidence from before 100 ad of some of the most widely held (and cherished) beliefs, including praying to departed saints.

“Fourth, only the Catholic Church can infallibly set forth and interpret God’s Word, or else we’ll have the heresies of Joel Osteen and Billy Graham, and Jim Jones, Cleflo Dollar and the rest….”

Well, no. Again, you believe it. The Catholic Church has never even published a commentary telling us what every verse means. I suspect Billy Graham has been used to lead more people to Christ than any Catholic you’ve ever met. We will know someday.I don’t confuse heretics like your other two (one cultist, one apparently self-centered, self-aggrandizer Jonesing for a jet. You don’t help your argument when you do that.

“Fifth, there are enough and more scriptural references on inter-cessionary prayer”

We agree that Christians are to pray. That was never in dispute. None of those verses though says Christians should pray to physically dead Christians or Jews.

Even the verse in Revelation doesn’t say if the saints who prayed were the ones under the alter (already physically dead) or on earth. More importantly, those carrying the prayers are never identified as being prayed to.

Best to you.

Ping me when you find the missing list of Pauline Traditions! :-)

I’ll ping you if I find Scriptural evidence for snake handling beyond that one verse.

Sorry, I need to add this rejoinder.

“It is the infallible part that is incorrect.”

The entire NT canonical text were sorted out by the early Church fathers under Petrine authority. Is the 2/3rd you are referring to?

So for ELEVEN centuries, saints and martyrs of the Church, to say nothing of theologians whose works to this day are studied in the theological departments of major colleges and universities, all got it wrong including the recent droves of Protestant theologians who after a lifetime of study and research converted to Catholicism? And this Church misled generations of followers despite the assurances of Christ that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church he founded?

So what is it you know that these others missed out that you happen to know?

Steelfish,

“The entire NT canonical text were sorted out by the early Church fathers under Petrine authority. Is the 2/3rd you are referring to?”

No, 2/3 Hebrew Scriptures, already decided.
The NT is 1/3 which was largely decided early on.

“So for ELEVEN centuries, saints and martyrs of the Church, to say nothing of theologians whose works to this day are studied in the theological departments of major colleges and universities, all got it wrong including the recent droves of Protestant theologians who after a lifetime of study and research converted to Catholicism? And this Church misled generations of followers despite the assurances of Christ that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church he founded?”

Wrong?: Humans are fascinating. They assume what is has always been and is true - until a precipitating event or idea forces a reconsideration. Then the energy shifts dramatically. People believe things with deep emotion, even though those things are not true. That is the human condition. They go on believing them and most do until...

Example: The Reformation was a reaction. It did not arise out of a vacuum. It arose because of the actions of the Roman church.

Conversion: People choose where they worship for all kinds of reasons. I leave that to God. Hundreds of millions of people have left Rome to go somewhere else. Some go to Rome. Finally, the Gates of Hell passage doesn’t teach the church - any church - is infallible. It means in the end, Death will not prevail against it.

Best.

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