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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
I was going to refrain from this thread... but you have called me back. No one else could have but a misinformed Catholic who doesn't truly understand their faith. We don't lose Catholics who understand their faith but unfortunately our modern bishops have done a very poor job of catechizing the faithful. Note to lurkers: this conversation is with Trapped Behind Enemy Lines. I will ignore your snarks and challenges... or respond if I so choose. I won't be baited for your pleasure. Please bear with me as I discuss your points with you, TBEL.

For example, no where is it written that you must confess your sins to a priest.

The sacrament of Penance is the way which God has chosen to administer forgiveness. Jesus exercised the power to forgive sins "that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mt 8:6). And Jesus to the Apostles in Jn 20:21-23 reads: "... As the Father has sent Me, so I send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." Note that this power bestowed upon the Apostles is different than the power previously given St Peter of binding and loosing, which is the broad power in matters of faith and morals; this power is specific to sin. Knowing that the Apostles, mere men, were incapable of handling such a responsibility on their own power, Jesus Christ gave them a special communication with the Holy Spirit for this special work. In all of the Bible, there are only two instances where God breathed on man, the other was when He gave man a living soul in Gen 2:7 - thus emphasizing the importance of the sacrament of Penance. And as this power was bestowed upon the Apostles, it was to be inherited by their successors, continuing His presence throughout time (Mt 28:19-20). Yes, Jesus is the one Mediator, but that does not deny Him from choosing others to assist Him in his work.

St Paul, in the name of Jesus, exercised the power of binding and loosing from sin and the effects of sin in the case of the incestuous Corinthian. In 1 Cor 3, St Paul says: "I have already judged him that hath done so"; and in 2 Cor 2:10, St Paul justifies his forgiveness of the repentant man by saying "If I have pardoned anything, I have done it in the person of Christ". Further, in 2 Cor 5:18, St Paul writes: "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation". And in 2 Cor 5:20, St Paul confirms "So we are ambassadors for Christ."

By sin, it was God that was offended; and God set down the conditions for forgiveness. You cannot insist of God that He forgive your sins on your own conditions. And Jesus Christ did not bestow the power and responsibility to forgive sins to the Apostles and their successors knowing that all one needed to do was to seek forgiveness through prayer. The Church does not deny that sins will be forgiven via prayer directly to God, given of course that there's true repentance coupled with firm resolution to avoid this sin in the future. However, the only way we can be sure of proper disposition of the forgiveness of sin with absolute certainty is via the means established by Christ - the sacrament of Penance.

Take the idea that Mary herself was born of an immaculate conception, an idea which has no scriptural basis.

There are four people in Scripture who were born immaculately (not under Original Sin)... Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus. Adam and Eve should be obvious as they had not yet committed sin before they were formed. Christ should be obvious as He was the unblemished Lamb of God. He was also the new Adam (1 Cor 15:45). Mary was the new Eve. Here is a link to a good discussion what it all means and why it is necessary: http://www.stpeterslist.com/682/6-biblical-reasons-mary-is-the-new-eve/.

This theory was institutionalized in the late 19th Century by Pope Pius IX...

Wrong. This idea was known from the beginnings of the Church. Pope Pius IX simply formalized it as doctrine. St Irenaeus wrote of the parallels between Eve and Mary and used general terms for Mary such as "holy", "most pure", "intact", "immaculate" as early as the latter part of the Second Century. Naming the doctrine (before it was doctrine) is shown by St Augustine of Hippo around 400 AD. It was a doctrine known by the Church but not specifically codified until Pope Pius IX.

... the same Pontiff, who btw instituted another questionable doctrine, the idea of papal infallibility, an idea which is perfectly authoritarian and absurd.

What is absurd is that this doctrine should appear overnight by Pope Pius IX. You do understand that the authority of the Pope was one of the main points of contention in the Great Schism of 1054, right? The doctrine was defined dogmatically at the First Vatican Council of 1870. As above, it was a doctrine known by the Church but only then codified directly. Papal infallibilty is a very limited function that applies to a very specific method of declaring doctrines or dogmas of the Catholic Church. The concept has nothing at all to do with the personal opinions or activities of any pope.

Throughout the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church, there have been fewer than 7 infallible statements (beginning in 449 AD). The Pope occupies the "chair" of St Peter, who Christ granted the authority to bind and loose both on Earth and in Heaven ... regardless of the faults or failings of the man who happens to occupy that chair, at any given time.

I believe the basis, the way, and the Truth, rests primarily with the word of God as it is presented in the Bible and the Gospels.

Yet it is Scripture Which proclaims the authority of the Church. There is the authority of the Prime Minister invested in St Peter (Isaiah 22; Matt 16:18). There is the authority given to baptize and teach (Matt 28:19). There is the authority to forgive sins (John 20:21:23). There is the authority to decide conflicts and excommunicate members (Matt 18:17). When Scripture points to the "pillar and bullwark of the truth", It points to the Church (1 Tim 3:15). There is so much that the Church has been commissioned to do that a book can't do on its own. The Church is the Body of Christ and is necessary in its own right in the economy of God. Her proclamations and practices may not contradict Scripture but She does have the authority to teach what She is taught through the Spirit which illuminates more than what was written (John 21:25; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Thess 3:6; 1 Cor 11:2)

Jesus is the Word of God. We worship Him in Word, in Spirit, and in Flesh in the realization of the Eucharist. We do not limit Him to a canon composed nearly 2000 years ago. Christ promised to send the Paraclete Who would teach us all things. It stands to reason, then, (and God does appeal to our reason) that this Church which is guided by the Spirit would be guided in an unfolding revelation that has not ceased. If the Church was given authority in Heaven and Earth to bind and loose then the Church was given authority to develop and define doctrine for the faithful which is true in all places, in all times. As we pray in the Nicene Creed: "We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church." There is only one Church which can credibly lay claim to all four.

I pray that I have not made any errors in my explanations here. I simply pray that you may understand the fullness of the Truth of the Church and not see Her simply as one option among many. May God bless you.

16 posted on 03/09/2015 1:21:32 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

Welcome back!


19 posted on 03/09/2015 1:27:51 PM PDT by Gamecock (Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Colonel Sanders is an Infantry officer.)
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To: pgyanke
I was going to refrain from this thread... but you have called me back. No one else could have but a misinformed Catholic who doesn't truly understand their faith. We don't lose Catholics who understand their faith but unfortunately our modern bishops have done a very poor job of catechizing the faithful.

HaHaHa...That is you main accusation...Always...Just poorly catechized...I have no doubt that every Catholic who ever left your religion was well versed in what you just posted...Their fortune was that they searched the scriptures to see if those things were so...And found they were not...

It a shame that the bible is not only in just the Latin Language...Then you could really dupe them, eh???

26 posted on 03/09/2015 2:28:42 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: pgyanke

Thanks, Pgyanke. You are a blessing to those on their journey home.


48 posted on 03/09/2015 8:14:11 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (If you haven't figured it out, there is a great falling away...happening before your eyes.)
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To: pgyanke

A person of their word.


52 posted on 03/09/2015 9:12:29 PM PDT by redleghunter (In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth—Gen. 1:1)
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To: pgyanke; Iscool; Gamecock; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums

Good evening. I was born, raised, educated (through university) and catechized in a devout Catholic and VERY Irish family.

I thank the Catholic church and my Catholic family for teaching me the beginning of wisdom...fear (reverence) of God. No better environment to point out sin and the consequences of sin which is death. I received that message loud and clear.

My family also encouraged reading the Catholic Bible at an early age. I continued reading and praying for God’s Grace and praise His Holy Name He gave me light by His Holy Spirit and through His Holy Word.

I understand the Catholic faith quite well. The message was an insufficient grace. Not the Grace of Christ witnessed in God’s Word.

We cannot find Grace of Christ in man-made doctrines but only in His Holy Word.

Happy are the feet of those who bring Good News.


54 posted on 03/09/2015 9:34:33 PM PDT by redleghunter (In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth—Gen. 1:1)
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To: pgyanke
There are four people in Scripture who were born immaculately (not under Original Sin)... Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus. Adam and Eve should be obvious as they had not yet committed sin before they were formed. Christ should be obvious as He was the unblemished Lamb of God. He was also the new Adam (1 Cor 15:45). Mary was the new Eve. Here is a link to a good discussion what it all means and why it is necessary: http://www.stpeterslist.com/682/6-biblical-reasons-mary-is-the-new-eve/.

Adam and Eve were not born immaculately. They were created.

If it were necessary for Mary to be born without sin because of Jesus, then it would have been necessary for Mary's mother to be born without sin. If Mary could have been born without sin of a sinful mother by an act of God, then Jesus could also.

In order for Jesus to share fully in our humanity, being born and raised by sinful parents would be part and parcel of it.

58 posted on 03/10/2015 1:05:13 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: pgyanke

2 Corinthians 5:18-21

“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be a sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

In reading through the above passage from Paul, we might ask the question who does Paul mean when he says “us” and “we”? Apparently the Catholic Church seems to think “us” and “we” refers exclusively to the Catholic clergy. I think this is a stretch at best. Clearly the ministries of both John the Baptist and Jesus place a great deal of emphasis on repentance. We all must acknowledge our sins and ask for forgiveness. But no where in Scripture do I find one single passage which states that we must confess and ask for forgiveness exclusively to a priest.

With respects to Mary, there is nothing the Bible that I can find that discusses the circumstances surrounding her birth so I don’t bother speculating. I know some Catholics believe that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin and that she and Joseph never consummated their marriage-—another theory not supported by any facts that I am aware of. Actually I first learned that Jesus had brothers and sisters in a Bible study class taught in a CATHOLIC church by a CATHOLIC priest no less. I am grateful to this day that the priest taught the Bible as it is written and did not make up things. When we got to the passages mentioning Jesus’s brothers and sisters the priest did not try to put some sort of spin on it like-—oh they really meant to say cousins-—or here’s another whopper I’ve heard over the years-—oh they were Joseph’s children from a previous marriage. It amazes me to the extent some people will go in order to propagate a doctrine or a dogma. The Bible (Luke) mentions Mary was a virgin only up to the time of her conception of Jesus. That is it. Period. It doesn’t go any further than that. I don’t know why some people are so determined to make up yarns which simply aren’t there.

With respects to papal infallibility you mention the Great Schism of 1054-—which basically does point to the origins of this rather infantile doctrine, basically the result of a power struggle between Rome and Constantinople in which the Roman authorities were trying to establish their power and authority over the Church in the East, which of course lead to the break up between the Roman Catholic Church in the West and Orthodox Church in the East. As an aside, at around this time there was a push to introduce compulsory clerical celibacy in Western Europe, and concept which met with great resistance in the East and therefore another reason which caused a schism between the two churches. To this day Orthodox priests are permitted to be married. And always have been. Same is true with certain Catholic churches in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.


77 posted on 03/10/2015 7:45:12 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: pgyanke

One thing I would like to add to our discussion:

“Confess your faults to one another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

James 5:16

Further confirmation that confessions do not have to be made to priests.


99 posted on 03/10/2015 12:42:03 PM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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