Posted on 12/28/2014 1:23:51 PM PST by wmfights
Jesus is going to be leaving his disciples very shortly, he is to be crucified, buried, and risen the third day. He has been training his disciples for 3 1/2 years, they are to take over the gospel work he has started, he is going away and leaving the church in their hands.
His words, therefore, are for the church, not Judaism, including what he said about his coming in verses 29-31, when the elect, the church, would be raptured at the last trump. At the last day.
The Olivet Discourse was given from the standpoint of Judaism’s rejection of Christ, see the entire previous chapter, especially verse 38, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” Spoken to the founders of the church, the twelve disciples. Christ is not speaking to the disciples as representatives of Judaism, which rejected Christ, everything he said was said to, and for the church.
There is only one coming in the entire discourse, and it occurs after the tribulation. No mention of a pretrib rapture at all.
Breaking this paragraph into two paragraphs, I try to have it make more sense:
The Olivet Discourse was given from the standpoint of Judaism’s rejection of Christ, see the entire previous chapter, especially verse 38, “Your house is left unto you desolate.”
The discourse was spoken to the founders of the church, the twelve disciples. Christ is not speaking to the disciples as representatives of Judaism, which rejected Christ, everything he said was said to, and for, the church.
I was once a pre-tribber, having been brought up in it. I found that I always had to refer to someones chart or explanation of the verses that referred to the event. Ialso determined, as I read the scripture for myself, and studied it dilligently that:
1. The plain reading of all of the passages you and I referenced above, plus many others, plainly teach that the rapture happens AFTER the tribulation
2. The word "Tribulation" in the NT is used 15 times: 4 times regarding the end times, once for the world in Romans 2:9 (referring to the LAST DAY, oddly enough), and 10 times for the Church! Thus, one can easily see that the Tribulation is a time for persecuting the Church!
3. Matthew 24 does not mention the rapture of the church prior to the second coming
4. All rapture passages (Matt 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thess 4:16, et al) have the some or all of same elements: coming on clouds, trumpet call, voice of Archangel, etc. They are the same event.
5. The pre-trib rapture of the Church is NOT mentioned in Revelation. The only feasible reference is the typology on Johns being take up in Rev 4:1, but it does not fit the previous references.
There are numerous others, but what bothers me most is the circular reasoning of the pre-trib enthusiasts. To wit: they claim that Matt 24:31 does not describe the rapture, because the rapture occurs after the tribulation, and this passage was for the Jews, not the Church. How do we know that the elect here gathered are the Jews? Because it is after the tribulation, and the Church is already gone.
Well written!
The prophecy and the vision in Daniel 11 transcends the persecution under Antiochus IV, and thought to deal with the “Antichrist” (taken by many as the figure in 2 Thess. 2:3–4; Rev. 13:5–8). Though Antiochus IV was powerful, he was able to do as he wills only up to a point, since he was still subject to the power of the Romans whereas the figure in Chapter 11 has greater power.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes met his end during a relatively minor campaign against Persia in 164 b. c., not between the sea and Jerusalem after a grand and successful assault on Egypt so this prophecy concerns the Antichrist and the verses in Chapter 11 are looking forward to a greater fulfillment that was yet to come at the time of the end; the fall of the Antichrist in the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:13–16) at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The continuation of the prophecy in Chapter 12 is for Israel (”which standeth for the children of thy people”) at the end of the Great Tribulation, not the church.
Paul speaks in Romans 11 “25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Notice Paul’s use of the term “election”. He is referring to Israel.
3. is 2 Thessalonians and is very explicit. If everyone would just read the Bible it is simple to understand that Jesus never says He comes back twice. I do like going through these and see what they are doing.
I always go straight to the reply posts. I figure that’s where I’ll get the short and to the point version.
Likewise, your posts.
Re: verse 9 of the discourse, “Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU, and YE shall be hated of all nations for my names sake.”
Who’s the “You,” the “Ye?” Is it Judaism, which rejects Jesus, that is hated for his name’s sake? I think not. It is Christians who are hated for the name of Jesus, and increasingly so by the day.
To say that the discourse is not spoken to Christians is one of the worst cases of reading into scripture one’s preconceived view, I’ve ever seen.
As far as I can tell in my studies so far, there is only one “Book of Life”. It contains the “names” (that seems to be a kind of Godel Number) for everyone who will make the transition to the New Heaven and the New Earth (or the “World to Come” as the Jewish Sages call it). The “elect” seems to be another label for the list of names in the BoL. Everyone whose names are not in the BoL end up in the Eternal Lake of Fire.
Do the saints in heaven have their new resurrected bodies yet? No! Why not? The new resurrected bodies are for earth not heaven. Pre-trib’ers would have us believe the saints are given new resurrected bodies and then taken back to heaven for 7 years.
They get new resurrected bodies when they return with Jesus, and then those who belong to Christ who are still alive on earth also get new resurrected bodies. Why? These new resurrected bodies are for earth, new Jerusalem, the millennium rule of Jesus. The saints in heaven and on earth do not get new resurrected bodies and then are whisked away into heaven for 7 years.
Pre-tribulation teaching is nonsense, it has no scriptural foundation, none!
Jesus will return only once after the 7 year tribulation that the church on earth will be here for. When Jesus returns the saints who come with him get new resurrected bodies and then the saints on earth get new resurrected bodies as scripture tells us. This happens as Jesus descends to earth and catches the church up to him. Satan and the demons are bound for a 1000 years as Jesus resigns in the new Jerusalem which is heaven joined to earth at the location of earthy Jerusalem.
Matt 24 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1. The plain reading of all of the passages you and I referenced above, plus many others, plainly teach that the rapture happens AFTER the tribulation
I am not even convinced there is a rapture as in the popular definition any way.
Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Paul does not actually say we will not die.
He may be telling is that if we are still alive in the last day that we will not sleep in death as the people did that died hundreds of years before but will be changed at the instant of death.
1 Corinthians 15
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Seems to me like that would include getting out of this world with out dying.
Just my view.
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Yep, there is that last trump again that you mentioned.
It seems they go through hundreds of years of scripture to try and prove their point when just a few little verses shoots them down.
“And they [the ten kings who will arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight” (Against Heresies, V,26).
The verses you referenced, Daniel 12:1-2:
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 thoughts:
1. "...thy people...will be delivered" refers to Daniel's people, on that we agree. However, the events that transpire affect the whole world, no? There is NOTHING here that excludes anyone, especially the Church.
2. "...every one that shall be found written in the book." does "every one" include only the subset of saved Jews, or all saved people?
3. As long as we are referring to Paul in Romans, we need to see Paul's other explanations, especially in Galatians 3:26-29 "26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. If this be true, the are we not members of Israel? Are we redeemed not the elect of Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, et al? Are we not all ONE PEOPLE in Christ Jesus, whose names are written in heaven?
All Israel will be saved, no doubt. Jesus will rescue Jerusalem and the remnant of the Jewish people, of course. But only those who call upon the one they pierced will be saved, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. These promises to the remnant do not exclude other believers, nor insist on their absence from earth at the culmination.
Who populates the Earth during the millennial reign?
These new resurrected bodies are for earth, new Jerusalem, the millennium rule of Jesus.
Amen!
As far as I can tell in my studies so far, there is only one “Book of Life”. It contains the “names”
I believe every one who has ever lived will be judged at the last day, Except the ones who went with Christ in the first resurrection.
Agreed! As is the "7 year tribulation. The tribulation in Revelation only lasts 42 months, or 3.5 years. "Seven" is mentioned 36 times in Revelation, and NEVER in reference to the duration. That comes from a single reference in Daniel 9, especially verse 27. Daniel 9:26 clearly refers to 2 people and one group of people, and their actions:
1. "The Messiah"
slain
have nothing
2. "The people of the Prince that shall come"
destroy the city
and the sanctuary
3. "the Prince that shall come"
Verse 27 refers to "he", and ascribes certain actions to him:
- confirm a covenant for one week
- shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease
- for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate.
The identity of "he" could be either the aforementioned "Messiah" or "Prince that shall come". It is routinely stated that the AntiChrist will sign or confirm a peace treaty with Israel for 7 years, and this is the only alleged reference that event that I know of. What is interesting, though, is that Jesus confirmed the Old covenant (Matt 5:17), established a New Covenant in his Blood (Matt 26:28) after his 3.5 year ministry, and he left Israel's house to the desolate! (Matt 23:38) Jesus made a bonafide offer to Israel, and they rejected him.
Revelation makes no mention of 7 years or a peace treaty. So, who is the identity of "he"
The nature of the tribulation as revealed in Scripture constitutes, therefore, an important argument supporting the teaching that the church will not go through the tribulation. It has been shown that a literal interpretation of the tribulation does not produce any evidence that the church will be in this period. Important passages such as Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Daniel 9:24-27; 12:1 ; Matthew 24:15-31; Revelation 4-19 ; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 5:4-9 do not indicate that the church will be in the tribulation period. It has been shown that the purpose of the tribulation is to purge and judge Israel and to punish and destroy Gentile power. In neither aspect is the church the object of the events of the period. In addition to these general arguments, the Scriptures also indicate that the believer in this present age will be kept from the time of wrath (1 Thess 1:9-10; 5:4-10 ; 2 Pet 2:6-9; Rev 3:10). Taken as a whole, the study of the tribulation as revealed in Scripture does not afford any support to a posttribulational translation of the saints.
Also, in the current article Walvoord makes the point:
The Day of the Lord as presented in the Old and New Testament includes rather than follows the tremendous events of the tribulation period. There seems some evidence that the Day of the Lord begins at once at the time of the translation of the church (cf. 1 Thess 5:1-9). The same event which translates the church begins the Day of the Lord. The events of the Day of the Lord begin thereafter to unfold: first the preparatory period, the first half of Daniel’s last seven years of Israel’s program preceding the second advent—the revelation of the man of sin, the formation of the revived Roman empire, finally reaching the stage of worldwide government, possibly as the last half of the period begins. Then there is the outpouring of judgments from on high, the seals of Revelation are broken, the trumpets of judgment sound, and the bowls of the wrath of God are poured out. The climactic event is the second coming of Christ to establish His kingdom, and the millennial age continuing the Day of the Lord is brought into being.
I concur. When ones theory hinges on typology, creating distinct event based on word choice of the author (parousia, apokalupsis, epiphaneia) and has no plain, obvious scriptural reference, then on must spend pages explaining it. They must also then spend pages more explaining why the plain reading of the scripture in the very passages that detail the event are incorrect.
The comment of "faithhopecharity" above, regarding the convoluted explanations required for the pre-trib rapture, is very telling:
could you possibly find some good Abridged (shorter!!!!!!) version of these essays?
It is just that there may not be enough time before the Second Coming to finish reading these most-extensive (long) essays.
If something does not make sense, maybe that's because it does not make sense, that is, it is irrational, illogical and untrue!
The pre-trib dispensationalist likes to assert the "Day of the Lord" is a long period of time, but in the reference quote above, it is a single day! To wit:
1 Thess 5:"2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Thieve don't break in and stay for 7 years, nor do women stay in labor for 7 years. It is sudden, immediate and swift.
Kinda like the Flood! Matt 24:" 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."
Also note, it is the UNBELIEVER who is taken away!
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usf from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
The Sixth Seal Initiates the Day of the Lord, it is not a continuation of it as Walvoord asserts!
This sounds an aweful lot like Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Study the Bible, not Walvoord!
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