Posted on 12/15/2014 5:29:08 PM PST by Morgana
(You mean like what you might lecture the apostle Paul to have done with this man committing sin in the Church @ Corinth?):
4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:4-5)
Brothers and sisters: Church discipline of ex-communicating people WAS a reality in the early Church -- and STILL is in many of its quarters. Its purpose is to "save" the person.
You would think by listening to some on this thread -- and elsewhere -- that kicking someone out of a church has the exact opposite effect.
(You be sure to invite me to your lecture of the apostle Paul when we get to heaven, ya hear?)
humm. can’t really tell if this woman is a lousy christian or the “church” is a lousy assembly of christians from her presentation. not enough data on how the church found out about it (did she confess, etc.) and exactly the steps they took in order with her. either could be faulted with more evidence. would be curious to hear the “church’s” side.
for example. she talks about ministry. a pastor whom i trust once said that true “ministry” is summed up by the degree to which you, as a mere human child of God, can “stand in” or reflect for the same non-believer, or fallen away or troubled believer the actions or advice or message the Lord Jesus, Himself would give. Obviously that would be contingent on how much in the Spirit you are in at that moment. at this moment, given additional evidence, i could see Jesus telling his apostles to do what the assembly did, or to forgive and accept this woman back into the assembly.
anyway, unlike this christian author, I don’t recall the Lord Jesus leaning on “what if’s” and/or looking back on a sinner’s past as he helps them anywhere in the Gospels.
that and the fact that God knew and would allow every step she and those around her would take in this matter—before the foundation of the world—is also problematic for this author. the way this happened was exactly the way God planned it.
i think she’d best take her own advice in the beginning and look forward. forget about her past.
Given that you apparently believe the baby has no soul until out of his mother's womb and that abortion is not murder, and since you appealed to the holy catholic apostolic church for support in your teaching, and support was denied, will you tell me which denomination, sect, or faith group is supporting your position on abortion ?
I’m sure you know those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Genesis is fairly straight forward regarding God breathing life into Adam AFTER the body had been formed.
Did Tertullian and Augustine have real-time ultrasound vision into the womb? and did they have the advantage of knowing that the child has separate and distinct DNA from every other person who has ever lived? or that as far as “formed” vs “unformed” that the new child has a functioning heart at 6 weeks...
I’m not the biggest bible scholar around but I know that infanticide was VERY common in ancient times ,, especially in the Roman empire ... and abortion being invasive and far more dangerous was less common and likely less of a conundrum for the scholars... I do not know of any early Christian writings against the most common birth control measure used in Rome ,, namely a primitive version of the IUD where a womans uterus would be packed with small smooth river rocks ... I think perhaps that Tertullian and Augustine’s writings are based on less complete knowledge than we have today.
I can’t help but think of “Bones” McCoy calling us savages as he walked through that SF hospital and performed a “miracle” by giving that woman a single pill that cured her...
Opposing evil while out of fellowship with God is also sinful.
So what?
#1 A baby's heartbeat & a baby's brainwaves comes AFTER the body is formed as well...But both heartbeats & brainwaves of the pre-born occur BEFORE any surgical abortion takes place. So if you're going to use the "body formation" distinction as a line of demarcation, then you need to be consistent.
Every abortion stops a beating heart. Every abortion kills off brainwaves.
#2 If you're going to use highly unique creation examples (like the first Adam, who knew no womb)...then you're going to have to be consistent and use the "second" Adam as well...Jesus
When He was a fetus, are you trying to tell us He had no soul? (Until He was born?)
The soul isn’t manifest by ultrasound. Ultrasound imaging focuses on the physical, not the soul.
Christianity is trichotomous. Even Platonic atheistic understanding of anthropology grasped the dichotomous nature of fallen man. Too many modern academics ignore everything other than the physical, thinking both soul and spirit are merely confused unskilled misunderstanding of physical phenomenon as empiricists stumbled into several centuries ago.
Even physical definitions of life for mature adults are measurables found in the third trimester, and some neurological functions are operational in the second trimester, but the soul, which is separable from the body, is also associated with the life breathed into the body as an image of God.
A stillbirth is also an example of a physical baby, not having received the soul, not a killing or murder.
The concepts have meanings and they are interconnected for a meaningful understanding of life as given to us by God Himself.
Asserting the soul pre-exists the body is much more problematic as that is the position of those who support reincarnation and several other heretical theologies.
There are strong arguments for the soul being created sometime between conception and birth.
IMHO, allowing the soul to be created by God and implanted to the body at birth is the least problematic and most educational regarding His Plan in the discernment between body, soul, and spirit.
Aren’t you the clever one...
I know right from wrong ... I have carried many young ones to the pathology lab ... I know Gods handiwork when I see it... Please stop wasting your time trying to convince me white is black and up is down.
The issue isn’t about destroying the body when people accuse abortionists of murder.
Murder is the separation of the soul from the body independent of God’s Will.
If the soul is not yet in the body, it might be a carnal death and one that is very unrighteously performed. I don’t condone it.
There still remain too many believers who oppose abortion by labeling it murder, when they fail to address some basic theological doctrines, which they should know.
You’re very sure of yourself. So when exactly to you does abortion become something more than rupturing a worthless “meat vessel” (your term was carnal death) and cross into murder ... you keep using the non-theological legal term “murder” ,, mixing your theological argument with the legal ,, as abortion is legal through birth here abortion is never “murder” because it is legal (although infanticide certainly is murder) ,, abortion is a “legal homicide”... and if you truly see abortion as insignificant prior to “the soul” entering the body why do you add that “you don’t condone it” ... logically to you it should be no different then than having your hair cut or fingernails trimmed... at exactly what biological stage does the soul enter?
You make no sense when your argument is stripped of your fancy wording.
Murder is the separation of the soul from the body independent of Gods Will.
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NEGATIVE: Murder is a legal construct that has nothing to do with the soul. It is an intentional illegal homicide. We have many words for killing ,, just as Eskimos have 30 words for snow ... each has it’s own meaning.. You are intentionally “muddying the waters” with inexactitude in your words.
How can you proclaim to know Gods will? How can you call anything murder or proclaim a killing to not be murder? Are you God?
I thought I had just made that exact point to you... you are becoming silly now..
I encourage you to study His Word and some basics of how God has made man.
I know you think this is silly, but it is germane to the issue of abortion.
The 10 Commandments condemn murder.
His Word authorizes killing of those who were unrighteous in specific situations.
Killing is not the same as murder.
Study the anthropology of man as provided by God.
The soul is a pertinent issue.
The soul is a pertinent issue.
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The soul is a pertinent issue for which neither you , I or any other man can give a definitive answer ... you do not read my replies otherwise you would have posted differently.. we agree on much but I cannot dialogue with someone that only speaks and doesn’t listen or think.
We don’t have to give a definitive answer.
God Provides.
So, how does it feel to not have a chance or a choice? The church didn’t want you to poison others, so it figuratively “aborted” you.
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