"Have you been saved?”

The Integrated Catholic Life ^ | November 16, 2014 | DEACON MICHAEL BICKERSTAFF

[Cvengr]

I suspect the root of our differences begins with a few assumptions.

We both recognize the old man has an old sin nature.

We understand that in our eternal state, we will be with God without sin (I need Scriptural support of this statement).

So somehow we must transition between our present state to the other.

In part, we have the new man who is sinless, which I would identify with our saved self.

We also have guidance from the epistles upon how we are continually sanctified by the work of God the Holy Spirit in us, while we remain in fellowship with God and intake the Word.

We know that he also have predestined rewards, which if we remain in fellowship with Him and perform good works through faith in Him, we might be rewarded at the bema seat with them.

We also know that prior to the first death, we will still sin or else we call God a liar.

Therefore we know that at the first death, there will remain a part of us in our old man, which is still sinful, both in body and soul. Our spirit though, as identified with our soul as the new man will ascend to be present with the Lord.

We know we (our bodies) will be raised incorruptible at the Rapture.

We also know we will be sifted/sorted as if by fire, to burn off that which is not pure, ... to remove the dross. This also happens before the first death, as we are tested in our sanctification processes on our daily walk with God through faith in Christ.

We also know we do not earn our salvation.

We know we are redeemed from the slave market of sin, regenerated in our human spirit, justified through faith, reconciled to God the Father by the work of Christ on the Cross, and all our sins have been judged at the Cross, allowing us to be forgiven upon acceptance of faith in Him and confession of our sins to Him.

We also know that God provides for our salvation.

I don’t see the necessity of our suffering Purgatory to justify God’s work in saving us.

[Cvengr]

I’m reminded of a fellow who recently was warned about an Internet/email scam going around, where the recipient was informed they had won a great sum of money, and in order to collect the reward, they had to pay the taxes and processing fees before the funds would be transferred.

The fellow understood, when did receive the offer, that it was a scam, a fraud, but he paid the $140 fee anyways.

When asked why we paid the fee, he responded it was to receive the reward. Again he was reminded this was a fraud. He acknowledged he knew it was a fraud, but if he didn’t pay it, he wouldn’t have a right to the reward.

Again, he was corrected, this was a fraud, no such reward existed. The fellow still replied that by his paying the fees, he remained entitled to the reward.

The fundamental flaw in his thinking, is that he presumes the reward to be real. He never gets around that assumption. He continues to act knowingly, after that state of faith in the existence of the reward.

The fraud laughs all the way to the bank, realizing ssom people will still give him money, even when they know it is a fraud.

I am reminded of this story when faced with many believers who study the Word.

For many of us, there is a tendency to read our assumptions INTO the Word, even when it is shown to us to correct our thinking.

I observe this frequently when discussing issues with Roman Catholics, although I also know the same weakness is present with all believers.

I’ve found the real trick is to keep short accounts and strive to accept what He provides when studying the Word,... building faith upon faith, doctrine upon doctrine, developed by Him in us, rather upon a soulish understanding from tainted doctrine.

It’s a remarkably simple process. It is only as hard as we make it, when we try to do the work ourselves, instead of allowing God the Holy Spirit to perform His work in us.

There probably isn’t an easier method to understand Him. He is the one who is doing all the work in our sanctifying process. All we have to do is have faith in Him.

[Elsie]

1 John 5:13-15
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

My child; you may THINK you know what that verse means; but you CAN rely upon what the Church has taught you.

Go and sin no more.

Listening to Protestants will only confuse you.

[Elsie]

If the answer is yes, then you cannot say you are or have been saved.... because you would lose it daily.

HOW would this happen?

[Elsie]

However, I know I am a sinner and need to cleanse myself from personal sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Can you explain (or link to an explanation) to help this PROTESTant understand how this process of self-cleansing works?

[Elsie]

Well, that is what we Catholics believe.

We get this; but WHY do you believe it?

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

1 John 5:13-15

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

How do you reconcile your interpretation of this verse with the following?

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

[Elsie]

Sheep can be in Heaven, Goats in Hell

HEY!!!

[Elsie]

There are false Christians, and while Catholics would say they lost their salvation, evangelicals would say that those who turn out not to be Christians never truly were in the first place.

Only those that hold the OSAS viewpoint.

[Elsie]

I believe from some things the Bible says that it’s possible for there to be some form of punishment for believers after death, what the Catholic Church teaches about it is too definite for the little that we know.

Could you POST these things?

If loss of some rewards is considered 'punishment'...

[Elsie]

Scripture makes it clear that born again believers stand before the judgment seat of Christ, but since they're there, it's not a matter of salvation. That's already settled by the fact that they are facing Christ.

Nope; for ALL will face Christ.

It's 'settled' because our names will be found in the Book of LIFE.

---

Exodus 32:32-33
 But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”  But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

 

Daniel 12:1
 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

 

 

 

Philippians 4:3
 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

 

 

Revelation 17:8
 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

 

Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

Revelation 21:27

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

[Elsie]

It’s the old...

Saved by Grace; Kept by Works

thingy.

[Elsie]

I shudda read ahead...

[Elsie]

We Catholics believe that Purgatory exists.

Why do you have this belief?

[Elsie]

a just man sins sevens times daily

Says who?

[Elsie]

...you best be living with the priest so you can confess on a daily, if not hourly basis.

Ah...

The old Hand in the Cookie Jar thingy...

[Elsie]

Nobody is in heaven, nobody is in hell.

That's the fact that was revealed to John:

Revelation 20:11 "Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.

[Elsie]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:18

[Elsie]

Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

 

Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:

 

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
 
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

 

 
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
 

[Elsie]

Get back to me when some Catholics come to your church and try to force you to believe what we believe.

Ha ha!

Catholics on FR are continually crowing about the uniqueness of there church and how you'd BETTER join it or else you'll lose out!

No force at all; it it!