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To: 82nd Bragger
"anyone who needs a physical object to remind them of how to worship is already lost. That’s what the 2nd commandment was all about...as nothing physical is needed to be saved."

With all due respect, this is about as mistaken as it could possibly be. It completely negates the significance of our being, by God's design, incarnate persons --- body and soul, flesh and spirit --- and our God being an incarnate God. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwells among us." The Incarnation changed everything.

I's like saying, "His flesh means noting, His blood means nothing, His Cross means nothing, His outward signs mean nothing; my own flesh means nothing; material creation means nothing (or at least, nothing good), Matter Doesn't Matter ---Manicheeism.

To address your other point: papal responses to the Holocaust:

POpe Pius XI spoke out against Hitler in a dramatic manner in 1937, with "Mit Brennender Sorge" ("With Burning Anxiety,") the only encyclical ever written in German, not Latin, and frontally repudiating the Nazi ideology of race.

The Encyclical was smuggled into Germany and read from Catholic pulpits on March 21, 1937.

Although ignorant critics today dismiss the Encyclical as a light slap on the wrist, the Germans saw it as a security threat. For example, on March 26, 1937, Hans Dieckhoff, an official in the German Foreign Ministry, wrote that the "Encyclical contains attacks of the severest nature upon the German Government, calls upon Catholic citizens to rebel against the authority of the State, and therefore signifies an attempt to endanger internal peace".

Unlike many of the Pope's latter-day detractors, the Nazis understood him and his successor,Pius XII, very well. After studying Pius XII's 1942 Christmas message, the Reich Central Security Office concluded: "In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order.... Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals." (Pick up any book that criticizes Pius XII, and you won't find any mention of this important report.)

Up until Pius XII's death in 1958, many Jewish organizations, newspapers and leaders lauded his efforts. To cite one of many examples, in his April 7, 1944, letter to the Papal Nuncio in Romania, Alexander Shafran, Chief Rabbi of Bucharest, wrote: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance"

The barrage of criticism didn't start until the 1963 play by Rolf Hochhuth (a Communist, and --- ironically in hindsight --- an ally of Holocaust denier David Irving!) which portrayed Pope Pius XII as having failed to take action or speak out against the Holocaust. The Encyclopedia Britannica assesses the play as "a drama that presented a critical, unhistorical picture of Pius XII" and Hochhuth's depiction of the pope having been indifferent to the Nazi genocide as "lacking credible substantiation"

I have no problem with a and scathing critique of German (and non-German) Catholic laypeople and clergy who were passive enablers or vicious collaborators with Hitler. Research them. Repudiate them. So much of the record is shameful.

But don't attack your own allies-- such as the two popes, Pius XI and Pius XII --- who stood with the Jews at terrific cost, and who deserve not the opprobrium of the world, but its gratitude.

42 posted on 11/17/2014 3:08:52 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment. " John 7:24)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Pope Pius XII, I believe he was, is not pleased.


43 posted on 11/17/2014 3:11:36 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“anyone who needs a physical object to remind them of how to worship is already lost. That’s what the 2nd commandment was all about...as nothing physical is needed to be saved.”

With all due respect, this is about as mistaken as it could possibly be. It completely negates the significance of our being, by God’s design, incarnate persons -— body and soul, flesh and spirit -— and our God being an incarnate God. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwells among us.” The Incarnation changed everything.

I’s like saying, “His flesh means noting, His blood means nothing, His Cross means nothing, His outward signs mean nothing; my own flesh means nothing; material creation means nothing (or at least, nothing good), Matter Doesn’t Matter -—Manicheeism.

To address your other point: papal responses to the Holocaust:

POpe Pius XI spoke out against Hitler in a dramatic manner in 1937, with “Mit Brennender Sorge” (”With Burning Anxiety,”) the only encyclical ever written in German, not Latin, and frontally repudiating the Nazi ideology of race.

The Encyclical was smuggled into Germany and read from Catholic pulpits on March 21, 1937.

Although ignorant critics today dismiss the Encyclical as a light slap on the wrist, the Germans saw it as a security threat. For example, on March 26, 1937, Hans Dieckhoff, an official in the German Foreign Ministry, wrote that the “Encyclical contains attacks of the severest nature upon the German Government, calls upon Catholic citizens to rebel against the authority of the State, and therefore signifies an attempt to endanger internal peace”.

Unlike many of the Pope’s latter-day detractors, the Nazis understood him and his successor,Pius XII, very well. After studying Pius XII’s 1942 Christmas message, the Reich Central Security Office concluded: “In a manner never known before, the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order.... Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals.” (Pick up any book that criticizes Pius XII, and you won’t find any mention of this important report.)

Up until Pius XII’s death in 1958, many Jewish organizations, newspapers and leaders lauded his efforts. To cite one of many examples, in his April 7, 1944, letter to the Papal Nuncio in Romania, Alexander Shafran, Chief Rabbi of Bucharest, wrote: “It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance”

The barrage of criticism didn’t start until the 1963 play by Rolf Hochhuth (a Communist, and -— ironically in hindsight -— an ally of Holocaust denier David Irving!) which portrayed Pope Pius XII as having failed to take action or speak out against the Holocaust. The Encyclopedia Britannica assesses the play as “a drama that presented a critical, unhistorical picture of Pius XII” and Hochhuth’s depiction of the pope having been indifferent to the Nazi genocide as “lacking credible substantiation”

I have no problem with a and scathing critique of German (and non-German) Catholic laypeople and clergy who were passive enablers or vicious collaborators with Hitler. Research them. Repudiate them. So much of the record is shameful.

But don’t attack your own allies— such as the two popes, Pius XI and Pius XII -— who stood with the Jews at terrific cost, and who deserve not the opprobrium of the world, but its gratitude.

No, you do not carry wafers (pagan sun worship) and wine with you everyday. I’m referring to daily living, not an occasional remembrance. One doesn’t need amulets, rabbits feet, crosses, medals of saints, rosaries or any nonsensical physical items to worship Jehova/Yahweh. The 2nd commandment, which Jesus said to follow, is a reminder of this. Rev. 22:19 is a reminder not to tamper with scripture in any form. Furthermore, Christians should not carry a symbol of his torture, as “it is finished”, and he has ascended to his father.

The biggest problem I have with the popes activities during WWII is their lack of leadership in enforcing that Christians are to be “no part of the world” and “should obey God rather than men.” Earlier Christians refused to serve in a nation’s armed forces. Are you going to tell me the popes forgot this? Surely, Jesus would not approve. The blood of tens of thousands is on their hands. Imagine Christians killing other Christians. What difference does it make if any pope condemns a world government from its pulpit while giving tacit approval to its atrocities by allowing its members to engage in an offensive military campaign?


48 posted on 11/28/2014 3:54:42 PM PST by 82nd Bragger (Count to four except when in a helicopter)
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