Posted on 10/22/2014 9:12:31 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
Apparently Cdl Bertone the former Secretary of State is feeling a little hurt, his predecessor Cdl Sodano was invited to the Synod but he wasn't. Anyhow his auto-biography is soon to hit the bookshops, and for those of you shocked by the horse trading and manipulation that was brought to the fore at the Synod be prepared for more!
And just in case you don't read comments on this blog have a look at this exchange from the post about Cardinal Kasper
Deacon Augustine said...
"Kasper makes more threats." True to form then because that is how he was appointed a Cardinal in the first place. According to then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, JPII did not want to give the red hat to either Kasper or Lehmann. But the German bishops threatened to withdraw funding for the Polish Church if they were overlooked and JPII caved in. Their names were added to the list separately about 2 days before the consistory.
They were made Cardinals only because of blackmail. Kasper's recent behaviour is simply consistent with the way he has always operated. Pope Frank should beware the company he keeps. 21/10/14 10:28 pm ....
Ray Blake said... Deacon Augustine, Where did you read that? 21/10/14 10:31 pm
Deacon Augustine said... It was revealed to the leaders of the FIUV in a meeting with Cardinal Ratzinger shortly after the consistory of 21/02/2001. Michael Davies recounted the incident in one of his last interviews before his death.
Apparently the German bishops prevailed upon the Polish bishops to twist JPII's arm. There was a lot of controversy about these appointments at the time in the Catholic press. Kasper had come out strongly against Dominus Iesus, but both Kasper and Lehmann had been in hot water with JPII for providing counselling certificates for women so that they could obtain abortions. They had also signed petitions in the late 90's asking for divorced and remarried Catholics to be re-admitted to Holy Communion. As you can imagine, this did not put them at the top of JPII's Christmas card list.
It raises interesting questions about the influence of the German Church and its influence.
I am afraid I have long suspected that in Germany having is not important whether it be for a bishop or a layman, all that matters is the money from Church tax. The lovely Amy Welborn has a well researched piece, Kasper, German Bishops, and the Church Tax which shows the simonical nature of the German Church, what she doesn't deal with is the level of dependance of the Vatican on Germany. Perhaps Bertone might reveal something.
For a 'Church of the poor' it is truly amazing how much influence the rich have.
How much did the German car makers pay for a corporate event in the Sistine Chapel, and of course the question is what else did they buy?
Ping!
IMO the one question to be asked is what percentage of bishops and cardinals aren't like Kasper and Lehmann?
....on social issues, especially homosexuality, Catholics are far more likely to be liberal than other Christians, and even Americans in general....the Pew Center finds that an overwhelming number of US Catholics aged 18 to 29 accept homosexuality (85 percent) and support same-sex marriage (75 percent). More worryingly for conservative Catholics, when the question is asked of weekly massgoers, who are by definition more likely to be involved in the faith and in their parish, the number of overall pro-SSM Catholics is an astonishing 45 percent. Only 44 percent of weekly massgoers support the Church’s teaching, which is to oppose same-sex marriage. The last 11 percent presumably don’t know how they feel. Given the strong cultural currents moving toward full acceptance of gay marriage, there is no reason to believe that when they do make their minds up, that all, or even most, of those undecided Catholics will break for the Church’s position. In fact, given that Pew’s analysis doesn’t break out the weekly massgoers by age group, it is likely that the opposition to SSM is heavily weighted toward the seniors, a group that is literally dying out........In general, the higher a share of a country’s residents are Catholic, the higher percentage of residents express tolerance toward divorce and towards gays. The effect isn’t huge, but it’s consistent.
-- from the thread Catholics, the Real Liberals
About 30 years ago, Fr. Paul Marx (Human Life International) wrote a piece titled “WHAT ‘Catholic Vote’?” He included a map, showing how every state (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, etc.) with 90% or so Catholics had two pro-abortion Senators, while every state with 2% or less Catholics (Utah, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.) had two pro-life Senators.
Of course, it was the era when most bishops were preaching the “Seamless Garment,” which is the doctrine that if you elect pro-abortion people, they will govern with compassion, wisdom, and justice, and will bring world peace, while if you elect pro-life people, they will starve the poor, kill the elderly, and cause nuclear war.
I'm among a handful of people who have posted threads discussing that exact point. A couple of years back, I determined that once you apply latae-sententae excommunications for voting Democrat, failure to attend weekly mass, etc etc etc, the percentage of 70 million American Catholics (USCCB numbers) that are "true" i.e. politically conservative (as FR would define it), "observant" Catholics is probably around 5 million people, i.e. roughly 7% of the USCCB numbers. I'd be interested to hear what numbers you arrive at.
Related threads:
Catholic Vote?
The Mythical Catholic Vote: The Harmful Consequences of Political Assimilation
America's conservative Catholics are on the warpath. Republicans should be courting them.
Those consistently complex “Catholic voters”
Why you shouldn’t blame the clergy that a majority of Catholics support abortion
Bringing a spiritual indictment against American Catholicism [don ye the asbestos suits]
Bare Minimum Catholicism
Well, it’s important to note that Canon Law doesn’t impose latae sententiae (i.e., “automatic”) excommunications with such reckless abandon.
The only latae sententiae excommunications in Canon Law are for physically attacking the Pope, throwing out the Blessed Sacrament, direct involvement in an abortion, and a couple of other things.
Voting for pro-aborts and being pro-abort are not among those offenses. Nevertheless, they are mortal sins.
The bishops, as a group, have devoted a tremendous amount of energy and rhetorical tricks to convincing people that these are not mortal sins. They have excused themselves, in their official policy, from denying Communion to pro-aborts, even though giving Communion to such people is a mortal sin.
Bishop Tobin, of Providence, has admitted in public that he voted for Obama in 2008! What??? And Tobin is one of the “good guys”!!!
Surveys since the 1970’s have consistently shown only a small minority of nominal Catholics agree with the Church on all three of the following issues: contraception, abortion, attempted second marriages. It was about 13% around 1980. It would be a surprise if it were more than 7% today. Mass attendance on Sunday is 10% to 20% practically everywhere—which means few Catholics either don’t know or don’t care that missing Sunday Mass is a mortal sin.
That is exactly what Benedict said over many decades: The Church is actually much smaller than people like to think.
The Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation/Confession is still on its deathbed, despite revival in isolated parishes.
JPII made Kasper a Cardinal because of the Vatican’s dependence on German money. The drama of the Synod has made many more people aware how the German church is financed—with money coerced from Catholics by the State. Benedict made Wuerl and Burke Cardinals at the same Mass. Wuerl has devoted himself to destroying Burke, and, under Francis, has succeeded. He thinks, anyway.
Reform will occur from the bottom up. It means real conversion on the part of many “little people.” Lots of faithful, regular, daily prayer. There is no other way.
Complaining, agitation, and “activism,” while necessary, are certainly not the answer, ultimately. Lots and lots of prayer, and frequenting the sacraments, may or may not “work” in reforming the Church, but that practical goal is not in our hands. Lots and lots of prayer, and reception of the sacraments, are ends in themselves.
St. Michael the Arch Angel... Pray for Us!
Well then these protestantized “Catholics” need to get out of the Catholic Church and join a protestant faith that agrees with them. The Catholic Church stands for the truth. It does not change because of how someone “feels”. Homosexual “marriage” does not exist, no matter what some protestant church tells it’s members.
But it would help if the left-leaning polls would quit interviewing Cafeteria Catholics in the NE, which of course constitutes the greatest numbers of Catholics in the country.
The vast majority lost their faith years ago and are fodder for the democrat party. There are Catholics all over the United States that try their best to live the faith. But the pollsters are never interested in them. B16 once said he would much rather have a smaller church of devout believers than a big church of non-believers. He is absolutely correct.
IMO politically liberal, amnesty-loving, racist Catholics need to stop pretending to be conservatives and get off of Free Republic.
We'll be happy to take your conservative folks!
“IMO politically liberal, amnesty-loving, racist Catholics need to stop pretending to be conservatives and get off of Free Republic”
Give me some names and I’ll run them off. I don’t know any liberal Catholics or liberal protestants that post on FR. Something tell me you don’t either.
If all the cafeteria Catholics would quit identifying themselves as Catholics (and they should be because they have renigged on the right to call themselves Catholic if they are pro-abortion or pro homo “marriage”), the remaining Catholics would still be the biggest Christian denomination in the United States.
Did you read the article I linked? We are the orthodox.
Conservative Catholics are the minority in Rome. Conservative Prods have you outnumbers.
Go ahead and sit next to abortionists and kneel at the alter with them. We’ll follow Scripture.
Read it slow this time. Maybe it’ll sink in.
“If all the cafeteria Catholics would quit identifying themselves as Catholics (and they should be because they have renigged on the right to call themselves Catholic if they are pro-abortion or pro homo “marriage”), the remaining Catholics would still be the biggest Christian denomination in the United States”.
“Conservative Catholics are the minority in Rome”
Please clarify that statement. Did doctrine change coming out of the Synod. Did any “liberals” get their way. Or did the orthodox Catholics beat them like a step child in the final report. The vast majority of the bishops at the Synod are conservative/orthodox Catholics. And at the end of the day it was their voice that was heard loud and clear.
Oh I read it just fine.
Someone turn the lights off in Rome if that ever happens.
Why is a protestant so obsessed with the inner-workings of the Catholic Church? Whatever protestant faith you follow do you ever offer it any advise on how to improve? Or is it perfect. Or are you upset that the doctrines of the Catholic Church will never change no matter how bad you want them to. The obsession with all things Catholic is strange. I certainly do not bother myself with whats going on with any protestant faith. Could care less.
Why not?
Whatever protestant faith you follow do you ever offer it any advise on how to improve? Or is it perfect.
Yup.
LOL projecting?
Carrie Underwood Disgraces Christians Everywhere
Don’t Worry about being “Left Behind.” Have a Holy Fear of being taken up to Judgment
13 Insightful Maps of U.S. Religion
Jehovah’s Witness Convert
Duck Dynasty’s Phil Robertson: Don’t Vote for “Ripping Fetuses Out of Their Mother’s Womb”
Between the Skeptic and the Fundamentalist
Joel Osteen and his wife are heretics, and that’s why America loves them
The Hail Mary of a Protestant
Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary
Responding to “Spiritual but Not Religious” Christians
That Church of England Vote…What Was That About?
Protestants: It's time to come back
Why Sola Scriptura Honestly Scares Me
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.