Posted on 10/20/2014 7:37:34 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
>Abram could have NOT believed the Lord.<
.
Yes he could have NOT believed, but he chose to. That is exactly what free will means.
Adam could have believed, but he didn’t and we got screwed.
What are you trying to say?
Amen, Amen, Amen ...... Saved by the blood and grace of God through Christ Jesus by grace through faith ALONE !
Ask a ( salvation by human works, human efforts ) self righteous religious person this .... , if they could save them selves ( through their own deeds, works, goodie two shoes self ) then ? They would have no need for a savior.
In what manner is my comment racist, 353FMG? Please elaborate.
(Sigh)
I always forget to put a “/s” sign behind my comment when it is made tongue in cheek.
Everybody throws the “racist” comment about these days and I don’t want to be left behind.
I am trying to show how we (each and every person) is responsible for their actions because we have a choice.
If we have no choice, we are not responsible, we are robots.
What St. Paul, the person who wrote the book of Romans is saying and asserting is that God has not forsaken Israel and the Jews, nor replaced them as some believe in their flawed theology, rather yet ? God still has plans and a future for the nation of Israel, the Jews.
Heck, I went scrambling to see if Vespasian was the first black Roman Emperor or something, lol. You never know what crazy research claiming this or that historical figure is something or other might be floating around the web.
Yeah, that so called “ Free choice “ really worked out well for Adam and Eve in the garden of eden when mankind truly at the only time in history had a true, pure free choice NOT being influenced by a ; fallen nature, evil wicked heart ( the human heart is the most wicked of ALL
things ..... As the bibkbible says so ) influenced by the ; the devil , demons , sports.
Mankind from since the fall has never truly has had “ Free choice “ ....... As Jesus Christ said him self “ you can not serve to masters “ ..,....
Yes, spell checker is needed and a larger keyboard.
B4L8R—Have to look up the references. :)
The question is, are you guys interpreting this to say that the Jews, currently, without faith in Christ, are saved?
All Israel shall be saved and He shall take away their sins. That’s what it says. The specifics as to how are not spelled out for us, that’s between Israel and God.
Obviously Paul understood that lots of Jews were already in hell at that point (for example, the rich man in Luke 16), and many more would come if they did not believe. Israel is differentiated from physical Israel in Romans 9, and other places, such as when Paul says that a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, circumcised in the heart, and not one who is only a Jew outwardly. Those Jews and Gentiles who are saved are the Elect, and those who are not saved are the reprobate.
Anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ has no part of heaven, and, therefore, the "all" can only mean all true Israel.
There will be humans that survive the End Times. Thus, scripture speaks of God’s seat over the nation of Israel. That does not mean they will be saved and go to heaven via Yeshua. They will be saved as an earthly nation, as a people.
Nope, anyone, including the Jewish person without faith in Jesus Christ is not saved, therefore no redemption.
That does not mean ? God has replaced the Jewish people with the Christian people as his chosen people.
Both are his special and chosen people ( sorry Muslims, hindos,etc. You don’t make the grade , no Christ ? No salvation ).
There will be a future time, place, and plan for God’s chosen people in the future in his plans..... He has not forsaken them nor replaced them, the Jews and Christians are grafted into the same Olive tree, Jew first.
The Salvation of All Israel At the climax of Paul’s discussion in Rom 9-11 he makes an astonishing claim: “[A]ll Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26). What he means by this has been the subject of considerable debate. Two questions, crucial both to the meaning of this verse and to the whole discussion of Rom 9-11, must be examined: Who is “all Israel”? and How is all Israel “saved”?
WHO IS ALL ISRAEL?
Several answers are given to this question today. According to some, Paul is talking about spiritual Israel, that is, Church made up of Jews and Gentiles converted to Christianity. According to others, Paul envisions the salvation of ethnic Jews, either from every generation or from the last generation of history. It is more likely, however, that “all Israel” is a reference to ethnic Israel, that is, the assembly of faithful Israelites from all twelve tribes down through the ages. In other words, Paul is thinking of the whole nation of covenant people descended from the twelve sons of the patriarch Jacob (renamed Israel, Gen 32:28). Several considerations weigh in favor of this third alternative. 1. Romans 9-11 is dominated by the terms “Israel” (eleven times) and “Israelite” (two times). This is in marked contrast to Rom 1-8, where Paul speaks only of “Jews” (nine times). The shift from using “Jews” exclusively to using “Israel” and “Israelite” almost exclusively points to a subtle but significant distinction between these terms. The distinction originated when the tribes of Israel split into two kingdoms after the reign of Solomon (1 Kings 12). Ten tribes from the north broke away and formed the “house of Israel”, while the two southern tribes of Judah and Benjamin became the “house of Judah”. Over the next several centuries, the northern tribes and then the southern tribes were forcedinto exile, and most of them never returned. The small remnant that eventually returned from Babylonian captivity and resettled in Palestine in the sixth century B.C. became known as “Jews”, taking their name from the dominant tribe (Judah) and occupying the land around Jerusalem in the south (Judea). By Paul’s day, the term “Jew” was used more broadly to mean someone who followed the Mosaic religion of Judaism and looked to the Temple of Jerusalem as the focal point of spiritual life, regardless of whether he lived in Judea or abroad. Most religious Jews traced their lineage to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin,and Levi. It seems, then, that when Paul begins talking about “Israel” in Rom 9-11, he is shifting to a larger historical perspective that stretches beyond the compass of “Jews” and evokes memories of “all Israel” as a national family of twelve tribes (Deut 27:9; Josh 3:17; 2 Sam 5:5; 1 Chron 9:1; Ezra 6:17; Tob 1:4-6, etc.). Paul seems aware, in other words, that the classical notion of “Israel” is more inclusive and far-reaching than the contemporary notion of “Jews”. 2. As Paul develops his argument in Rom 9-11, he draws from passages of the Old Testament that promise salvation for all the tribes Israel. Tribes from the Northern Kingdom of Israel are in view in several passages (e.g., Is 10:22-23 at Rom 9:27-28, and 1 Kings 19:10 at Rom 11:4), and tribes from the Southern Kingdom of Judah are in view in others (Is 1:9 at Rom 9:29, and Joel 2:32 at Rom 10:13). 3. When Paul describes himself as an “Israelite” in Rom 11:1, he does so with explicit reference to his tribal affiliation (the tribe of Benjamin). 4. Paul’s hope for the salvation of “all Israel” is in line with the prophetic hopes of the Old Testament, where the spiritual restoration of all twelve tribes, after centuriesof division and exile among the Gentiles, is one of the towering expectations for the messianic age (Sir 36:11; 48:10; Is 11:11-12; 49:6; Jer 3:18; 50:17-20; Ezek 37:15-28; 48:1-35; Zech 8:13, etc.). The same hope for a restoration of the twelve tribes is expressed in ancient Jewish sources outside the Bible (e.g., 4 Ezra 13:39-48; Psalms of Solomon 17:28, 44; Testament of Benjamin 9:2; 10:11; 2 Baruch 78:4-7).
HOW IS ALL ISRAEL SAVED?
At least two different views of how Israel comes to salvation are current today. 1. The two-covenant view, developed in modern times, holds that Israel will be saved apart from Christ and apart from any acceptance of the gospel. In other words, proponents of this view envision a bi-covenantal arrangement where the Mosaic covenant continues in force alongside the New Covenant, with the former intended to save the Jews and the latter to save the Gentiles. In support, advocates contend that “Christ” is never explicitly mentioned in Romans 11, that “the Deliverer” foretold by Isaiah refers to Yahweh rather than the Messiah (Is 59:20 cited in Rom 11:26), and that the “covenant” of forgiveness mentioned by Isaiah is the Mosaic covenant rather than the New Covenant (Is 27:9, alluded to in Rom 11:27). 2. The New Covenant view, held by the vast majority of interpreters through the ages, holds that Israel will be saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. This second view is far more probable than the first, as it alone is consistent with the immediate context of Rom 9-11 and the wider context of Paul’s theology and writings. In point of fact, the bi-covenantal view collides with the whole message of Romans, namely, that the gospel of Jesus Christ brings “salvation” to Jews and Gentiles alike (Rom 1:16), that one must confess faith in Jesus to be “saved” (Rom 10:9), and that Paul thinks of his missionary efforts among the Gentiles as a means to “save” his Israelite kinsmen (Rom 11:14). There is every reason to suppose, moreover, that Paul is thinking of Christ and the New Covenant when he quotes the words of Isaiah in Rom 11:26-27. For Paul, the risen Jesus is our Deliverer (1 Thess 1:10) and the one who takes away sin through the sacraments of the New Covenant (Rom 6:1-11). By contrast, the Mosaic covenant is something that condemns rather than saves (Acts 13:38-39; Rom 3:20; 2 Cor 3:4-11). In Paul’s mind, then, there is no “alternative way” of salvation for Israel apart from the grace of Jesus Christ that comes through the preaching and acceptance of the gospel (Rom 10:14-17; CCC 765; 839-40). THE CLIMAX of Paul’s discussion is the revelation that Israelites from all twelve tribes will be saved by the Messiah through the mercy and forgiveness of the New Covenant (Rom 11:26-27). Seen in this way, the teaching of Paul simply echoes the teaching of Jesus, who not only selected twelve apostles to signify the messianic restoration of Israel (Mt 10:2-5), but sent them out to recover the “lost sheep” of Israel (Mt 10:6) and promised to seat them on twelve thrones over “the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mt 19:28). None of this is surprising when we consider that the Church, which is the messianic kingdom of Jesus (Mt 16:17-19; Lk 22:28-30), is modeled on the ancient kingdom of David, which unified all twelve tribes under the anointed king (2 Sam 5:1-5; 1 Kings 11:42), even as it stretched beyond the borders of Israel to encompass the Gentiles (1 Kings 4:21; Ps 2:8; 72:8-11).
Makes a lot of sense but in verse 29 God said
I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God.
if he has poured out his spirit on them, how could they not be repented?
Maybe time didn’t and won’t pass for them at all.
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