http://pre-trib.org/
Posted on 07/31/2014 8:11:14 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
I separate “the tribulation” into two parts. First is the “wrath of Satan” against the believers. I believe the church will be on the planet to deal, through Christ, with the trials and tribulations. Then comes Revelation 7. The 144k are sealed, the church is raptured, and the “wrath of God” begins.
Yes, that is true, but is anyone actually trying to argue that they are literal lampstands?
If I’m arguing with you that the churches are not lampstands, but they are all support for lights to the world, and you say, “but it says right in revelation that they are lampstands”, I don’t consider your position solid, especially if that is your key scripture to support your position.
And if you do it in other places in Revelation, same thing.
Think of it this way: “X is Y”, where X is the lampstands and Y is the churches. We know that Y is not literally X. Any other scripture in revelation that uses that phrase should not be used to “prove” that its Y is X.
And there are plenty more, like studies of the identity of the "elect", the word "tribulation", Matt 24:29, 1 Cor 15:52, 2 Thes 2:1-3, etc.
Oh yeah, I especially like the "God does not want a bloody bride" argument too. Especially in light of Rev 21:2 & 9-10.
Excellent! Well done!sons
You aren’t implying that there is no conjectural wiggle room in any interpretation of prophecy, are you? Even among educated, reasonable believers?
“In fact, this verse itself contradicts your interpretation, as it supplies a sign (the last trumpet) that accompanies the second coming, which we can place chronologically with other events from prophecies.”
It’s highly unlikely that Paul was referring here to the “last trumpet” of Revelation, since Revelation had not yet been written. The last trumpet here would be in respect to the end of the age.
“The tribulation means troubles, not wrath, so this verse does not state we will be spared from the tribulation.”
Wrath refers to the great tribulation period, see Revelation 6:16-17.
“The Bible never says Jesus will be unseen at the first resurrection, so there is no contradiction here.”
1 Thessalonians 5:2
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night”
“It’s highly unlikely that Paul was referring here to the “last trumpet” of Revelation, since Revelation had not yet been written.”
This might be a problem, if you didn’t believe that an Apostle like Paul had the gift of prophecy, and if you also didn’t believe that the entirety of Scripture is inspired by a divine author who knew the entire content before it was published. There are a great many similar references in Scripture that are only understandable by reference to later books. For example, many of the prophecies of the Messiah were not understood until centuries later, when Christ appeared.
“The last trumpet here would be in respect to the end of the age.”
There is no reference in the Bible to any last trumpet at “the end of the age”, that I know of. On the other hand, in the reference you cited, and the reference in Revelations to the final (seventh) trumpet, both correspond with descriptions of the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the righteous. Unless you can show that Christ will return more than once, and that the righteous will be resurrected more than once, the only logical conclusion is that both of these descriptions are of the same trumpet.
“Wrath refers to the great tribulation period, see Revelation 6:16-17.”
Those verses describe an event during the great tribulation period that is called the “great day of wrath”. It’s an event referred to many times in the Bible, by other names as well, such as the “Day of the Lord”. This is not the same thing as the tribulation, it simply occurs during (at the end) of the tribulation period. To equate the entire tribulation with wrath in order to support your thesis is not supportable. As I said before on this thread, if the Great Tribulation was God’s wrath, it would be call the Great Wrath, not the Great Tribulation.
“1 Thessalonians 5:2
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night””
Yes, and, just as I said, this verse does not say that Jesus will be unseen at the first resurrection, does it? All one needs to do is look at the verse in context to see that your reading is flawed (1 Thes 5:1-4):
“1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”
The full context reveals that the comparison to the thief means only that the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly (for non-believers), not that the second coming and first resurrection are some sort of secret or concealed events. In fact, it refutes any notion that this event happens without people noticing, for how could they not notice destruction befalling them that they cannot escape?
“Think of it this way: “X is Y”, where X is the lampstands and Y is the churches. We know that Y is not literally X. Any other scripture in revelation that uses that phrase should not be used to “prove” that its Y is X.”
Ok, I think I see what you mean here, but I guess I still haven’t seen many people making that kind of argument.
“You aren’t implying that there is no conjectural wiggle room in any interpretation of prophecy, are you? Even among educated, reasonable believers?”
No of course not, but I am not speaking of “any interpretation of prophecy”, I am speaking of the placement of a single event, in relation to other events of prophecy, where there is a clear chronology given by the Bible, supported by multiple independent references. On that count, no the Bible doesn’t leave us any “wiggle room”.
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
It appears some (all?) of God's people will be here.
http://pre-trib.org/
add to uses of harpazo
4. Philip
Acts 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Would Craig be amillenial, historic premillenial, or post-millenial in his eschatology?
Thank you for the reference.
[Saw this revealing piece on the net. Fascinating?]
The Pretrib Rapture Jackpot!
by Bruce Rockwell
Attention, writers. You can make a fortune by promoting the pretrib rapture!
First, some background. As you know, pretrib began in Scotland in 1830. The earliest developers, including Edward Irving and John Darby, admitted that it was then a totally new view that had never been part of any church’s theology.
They also admitted that it had suddenly sprung from only OT and NT “types” and “symbols” and not from any clear Bible statement!
As late as 1957, pretrib expert John Walvoord admitted in “The Rapture Question” (p. 148) that “pretribulationism” is NOT “an explicit teaching of Scripture”!
Since the early 1900s pretrib has been sold by novelists like Sydney Watson (in 1913) and by Salem Kirban whose “Left Behind”-type novel “666” came out in 1970 - the same year Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” started breaking sales records.
The very first rapture novel titled “Left Behind” came from the joint pens of Peter and Patti Lalonde in mid-1995, resulting in some competitors being left behind.
The pretrib rapture view, which admittedly is only an “inference” and not “explicit,” rests basically on verses in John 14, I Thess. 4, and I Cor. 15, none of which have either a “taken/left” separation or exciting, nail-biting scenarios that can “sell” pretrib.
You have to go to Revelation’s action-packed chapters instead. When you do, you discover they can be tied to end time details found basically in the Olivet Discourse.
As you know, pretribs believe in two stages; Stage 1 is the pretrib rapture which supposedly occurs several years before Stage 2 which is the posttrib second coming to earth.
Since the three “rapture” chapters listed above don’t have any clear rapture-type separation between the “righteous” and the “wicked,” your best launching pad if you want to be a bestselling author is “the one shall be taken, and the other left” phrase in Matt. 24:40, 41 and Luke 17:34-36.
Trouble is, Dr. Walvoord and many other pretrib leaders declare that the “one taken” are the “wicked” taken in judgment while the “righteous” are left! But since the average pew-sitters don’t seem to know this, you can easily convince them that the “one taken” is a sort of code for an any-moment pretrib rapture!
And the pew-sitters don’t know that Walvoord etc. also teach that the same phrase is part of “non-imminent” Stage 2 which is posttrib (and not pretrib) and is on “Jewish” (and not “Church”) ground!
In order to preserve and emphasize Stage 1 (the pretrib rapture), pretrib merchandisers in recent decades have been stretching forward various aspects found in Stage 2 and quietly applying them to Stage 1. Aspects include “the day of the Lord,” “God’s wrath,” “the taken/left phrase,” “the unknown day and hour,” and Christ’s coming “as a thief” (which is always tied to Armageddon and other posttrib events).
(For more on the above Google “The Correct Answer to Who’s Taken” etc. on Joe Ortiz’s blog of Apr. 12, 2010. Also Google “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.”)
Yes, I’ve told you how you can turn yourself into a bestselling, wealthy author.
But unfortunately you have some competition because Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have already become opportunists and made millions of dollars that are destined to be left behind!
For more on them and their partners, Google “The ‘Left Behind’ Rupture,” “LaHaye’s Temperament,” “Jerry Jenkins Apologizes for Being Seen Gambling in Casinos,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” “Evangelicals Use Occult Deception,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
In closing let me say that Jeremiah 17:11 warns that “he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.”
And you can bet on this!
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