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Presbyterians [PC(USA)] Become the Silly Church; A dying mainline church speeds its decline.
The American Spectator ^ | 6.21.14 | Mark Tooley

Posted on 06/23/2014 6:39:22 AM PDT by Gamecock

At one point during this this week’s General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the hundreds of delegates, known as commissioners, gleefully bounced scores of red balloons in the air. At another point, they collectively broke into dance, confirming that most Protestants, especially if they’re old, white and Anglo, don’t look so great wiggling around. (Here’s a video, for mature viewers only.)

Mainline Protestantism, at least in its official curia, has been liberal for nearly 100 years. But for most of that century it was a thoughtful, dignified liberalism that still roughly adhered to historic Christianity’s moral architecture, even if it no longer upheld the core doctrine. But the yonder years of stately Protestantism, at least in the old Mainline, are largely over. And this week, the 1.7 million member PCUSA suffered a meltdown, authorizing clergy to conduct same sex unions, reaffirming its commitment to largely unrestricted abortion rights, and voting to divest from three firms doing business with Israel.

(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: abortion; antiisrael; antisemitic; bds; calvinism; fruitsofcalvin; homosexualagenda; lesbyterian; pcusa; presbyterian; reformation; reformed; religiousleft

1 posted on 06/23/2014 6:39:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
GRPL Ping

2 posted on 06/23/2014 6:40:25 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: Gamecock

they are flippin idiots who stand for nothing


3 posted on 06/23/2014 6:41:51 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Gamecock

All of these mainline confessional denominations are dying and bleeding membership and contributions. I see this outreach to the gays and uber multicultural progressives as a last desperate act to try and generate some much needed cash flow. Those priestly pensions aren’t going to pay for themselves.


4 posted on 06/23/2014 6:42:53 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Gamecock
At one point during this this week’s General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the hundreds of delegates, known as commissioners, gleefully bounced scores of red balloons in the air. At another point, they collectively broke into dance, confirming that most Protestants, especially if they’re old, white and Anglo, don’t look so great wiggling around. (Here’s a video, for mature viewers only)....this week, the 1.7 million member PCUSA suffered a meltdown, authorizing clergy to conduct same sex unions, reaffirming its commitment to largely unrestricted abortion rights, and voting to divest from three firms doing business with Israel.

PFL

5 posted on 06/23/2014 6:43:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Gamecock

The minute they condemn Israel, the only friggin’ Democracy, true ally of the USA and stable, Western regime in the entire region, the Presb’s are finished.


6 posted on 06/23/2014 6:43:22 AM PDT by Netz
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To: Gamecock

Sir John Glubb was a British General, historian and Arab expert, who wrote about the decline of Empires

the final stage of “Decadence” is marked by

Defensiveness
Pessimism
Materialism
Frivolity
An influx of foreigners
The Welfare State
A weakening of religion

A see a couple right away in this article...


7 posted on 06/23/2014 6:48:35 AM PDT by PGR88
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To: circlecity

A Protestant church that thinks it can solve membership decline by appealing to gays and multicultural-progressives will have as much success as a supposedly conservative political party that thinks it can win elections by appealing to illegal immigrants.


8 posted on 06/23/2014 6:50:21 AM PDT by Junk Silver
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To: PGR88

A sad bump for future reference.


9 posted on 06/23/2014 6:59:17 AM PDT by dangerdoc ((this space for rent))
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To: Gamecock

There is a huge Presbyterian church directly across the street from my office. I’m tempted to put an Israeli flag in my front window where they can all see it next Sunday morning.


10 posted on 06/23/2014 7:07:07 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: Gamecock

If they’re here

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/north-america/united-states-of-america

they’re apostate.


11 posted on 06/23/2014 7:07:54 AM PDT by polymuser
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To: Daveinyork

Is it PCUSA...or PC America? There is a huge difference?


12 posted on 06/23/2014 7:09:48 AM PDT by goodnesswins (R.I.P. Doherty, Smith, Stevens, Woods)
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To: Gamecock

More like a flat-line “church” now.


13 posted on 06/23/2014 7:19:57 AM PDT by fwdude (The last time the GOP ran an "extremist," Reagan won 44 states.)
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To: kalee

Placemarker


14 posted on 06/23/2014 7:24:56 AM PDT by kalee
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To: goodnesswins

A great resource for detailing the differences between the two groups:

http://biblebased.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/13-differences-between-the-pca-and-the-pcusa/

1) The PCA does not ordain women to either of the offices in the church (Teaching/Ruling Elder, Deacon). The PCUSA by contrast ordains women to both offices.

2) The PCA affirms that the bible is inerrant and infallible in all that it teaches. The PCUSA does not.

3) The PCA repudiates abortion and considers it a violation of the sixth commandment. The PCUSA believes, there should be no limits on access to abortions, there should be public funding of abortions, and that there should be limits placed on people who demonstrate against abortion.

4) The PCA is against homosexual behavior and same sex marriage and believes both are sins. The PCUSA does not consider homosexuality to be a sin, ordains practicing homosexuals and came within 30 votes of giving the go ahead to same sex marriage ceremonies in the church. Their next General Assemby (GA) will probably do so. [Referring to future vote that just occurred last week.]

5) The PCA is against divorce except in cases of adultery or desertion. The PCUSA by contrast allows for no-fault divorce and remarriage.

6) The PCA has a constitution consisting of the Westminster Standards and Book of Church Order. All church officers must subscribe to these documents as their Confession of Faith. Teaching against the doctrines contained in these documents or violating them could result in trial and deposition from office.

By contrast, the PCUSA has a “Book of Confessions” containing all of the major Reformed Confessions, and some modern confessions of faith which change or even deny things contained in these confessions. They are viewed more as a series of general guidelines or suggestions that do not bind the conscience of officers in any way. PCUSA church officers routinely teach contrary to the doctrines contained in these documents.

7) The PCA is explicitly Reformed in its theology. Someone denying Calvinism would have an extremely hard time being ordained in the PCA. By contrast, the theology of PCUSA congregations varies widely from church to church and can cover a spectrum from defacto Unitarian Universalism to Neo-Orthodoxy to soft Arminianism. Very few PCUSA congregations are explicitly Calvinistic in their teaching and preaching.

8) The PCA is explicitly evangelistic in its belief that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life” and that “No one comes to the Father except through [Him]” as well as its desire to see all people come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whereas in the PCUSA evangelism is much less popular and often either non-existent or repudiated in the manner of influential PCUSA Pastor Rev. Randall K. Bush who stated recently: “As of this point, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached to all the corners of the world, so knock it off…. Once the evangelical notion of the church can be turned down for a moment, the wisdom of other faiths can finally speak.”

9) The PCA is committed to a principle of voluntary association and all PCA congregations own their own property. Additionally all giving to the administration and permanent committees of the PCA is voluntary. By contrast the property of PCUSA congregations is “regarded as held in trust for the benefit of the PC(USA).” This makes the dissolution of the denominational bond much more difficult in the PCUSA and can sometimes mean a congregation must leave without their church building.

10) While the PCA is gradually centralizing power, the PCA was originally intended to be a “grass roots” denomination and power is still vested largely in Presbyteries in the PCA. By contrast, in the PCUSA, power is much more centralized in the administration and General Assembly.

11) While the PCA is gradually becoming tolerant towards the teaching of theistic evolution, Creationism is still the doctrine held and confessed by most PCA pastors. By contrast, in the PCUSA, evolution is widely accepted.

12) While the PCA is gradually becoming more open to being involved in national and international politics, particularly through its membership in the NAE, they generally hesitate to take stands on issues that do not clearly fall under the oversight of the church. The PCUSA, on the other hand, routinely takes stands on a host of political issues ranging from immigration to increased funding for public schools to condemning big tobacco to divestment from Israel.

13) (Addendum Regarding Worship) – There used to be significant theological differences between the PCA’s and PCUSA’s theology of worship. These difference still exist on paper even though they no longer exist in practice. The PCA confesses that all of our worship should be directed only by the bible, while the PCUSA states that worship should be an amalgam of bible, culture, feeling, and tradition.


15 posted on 06/23/2014 7:25:09 AM PDT by fwdude (The last time the GOP ran an "extremist," Reagan won 44 states.)
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To: polymuser

Amen.

If you go to that website and click on the “What We Do Tab” you will see things like

Care for creation and climate justice
Care for creation and justice are at the centre of WCC work on climate change. The Bible teaches the wholeness of creation and calls human beings to take care of the garden of Eden (Gen 2:15). The God of the Bible is a God of justice who protects, loves and cares for the most vulnerable among his creatures.

Ecumenical Water Network
The Ecumenical Water Network (EWN) strives to promote the preservation, responsible management and the equitable distribution of water for all, based on the understanding that water is a gift of God and a fundamental human right.

Towards just and inclusive communities
As an expression of its commitment to justice, human dignity and liberation the WCC, since its inception, has been a reliable partner of discriminated and excluded people - racial and ethnic minorities, those with disabilities, Indigenous Peoples, Dalits and others - in their struggles. This is a theological activity with people who are exposed to racism, indigenous peoples, migrants, Dalits and people with disabilities.

Promoting Just Peace
This project is an integral part of the WCC response to violence and violent conflict today. It is based on decades of ecumenical deliberation, understanding, practice and advocacy. The project is participatory and action-oriented and assists churches and related groups to make progress toward greater unity for peace.


16 posted on 06/23/2014 7:30:01 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: fwdude; Daveinyork

Yes...These are the differences...and the only way to know is to call the church and ask if they are PCUSA or PCAMERICA


17 posted on 06/23/2014 7:36:03 AM PDT by goodnesswins (R.I.P. Doherty, Smith, Stevens, Woods)
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To: Gamecock; All
even if it no longer upheld the core doctrine(s).

Just before 1973, the folks considering splitting completely off from the mainline Presbyterian church looked for where the core doctrines had been abandoned.

The symptoms of that abandonment were abounding: Using Tithes to fund the Communist Sandanista Rebels and also to transport young Women across state lines for Abortions was too much to bear. So they examined the past and found other red flags and ultimately the core doctrinal abandonment that caused them.

The other symptom was in the 1930's in ordaining a minister who did not believe in the resurrection of Christ.

Ultimately it came down to the core doctrinal change, that of abandoning Biblical inerrancy.

The symptoms in any church ultimately comes down to faith in God, His Word, and His authority. And since the current depravity seen is no different and the need for sincere repentance is ever more evident - Severe prayers are indicated.

18 posted on 06/23/2014 7:36:49 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: fwdude

Thanks. So not all Presbyterians have gone loony tunes apostate.


19 posted on 06/23/2014 7:54:33 AM PDT by afsnco
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To: Gamecock

This is why I don’t understand why so many Freepers equate Christianity with conservatism. Between black churches, the Catholic church, and churches like this one, it’s clear that Christianity is not parallel with American conservative thought. There are millions of Christian Democrats in America, and millions more Christian Socialists worldwide.


20 posted on 06/23/2014 7:54:49 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: goodnesswins

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll look into it before I make a fool of myself.


21 posted on 06/23/2014 8:04:46 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: afsnco
No we are not.

On the conservative side we have the Presbyterian Church in America, The Orthodox Presbyterian Church and The Associate Reformed Prebyterian Church. There are also a few that have a handful of churches in the denomination.

In the middle, but leaning conservative we have the Evangelical Presbyterian Church.

All of the above make it easy for members and pastors to move between them, which is useful if you move a lot, like I do. Pastors go to the same conservative seminaries.

On the left we have the PC(USA) and the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, which is Presbyterian in church government only.

22 posted on 06/23/2014 8:05:29 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: A_perfect_lady

I agree with you.

In this context the issue is a theological liberalism and a theological conservatism.

It goes back to that question that Jesus asked, “who do you say I am? “


23 posted on 06/23/2014 8:29:57 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: A_perfect_lady
This is why I don’t understand why so many Freepers equate Christianity with conservatism.

Conservatism, as I understand it, stands up for core principals. For Christians for instance, that is Biblical Inerrancy and the Authority of God and His Word. Socialism/Progressivism seems to put man above God instituting human relitavism instead.

For instance in Social Justice stealing from the rich is justified by getting rid of "Thou Shalt not Steal". Abortion is justified by getting rid of "Thou Shalt not Kill". Homosexuality is justified by getting rid of "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery". It all comes down to getting rid of God and His word because it is inconvenient to men.

24 posted on 06/23/2014 9:03:50 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: A_perfect_lady
This is why I don’t understand why so many Freepers equate Christianity with conservatism.

Agree.That ship sank in the early 1900's, with FDR's welfare state.

25 posted on 06/23/2014 9:53:38 AM PDT by polymuser
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To: sr4402
Socialism/Progressivism seems to put man above God instituting human relitavism instead.

Liberals would tell you that Jesus advocated paying your taxes and helping the poor. They have just as much of a case as conservatives have. Christianity is simply not built on the same principles as American conservatism. There are elements of it that can be used by both sides, but it's a pick-and-choose business.

26 posted on 06/23/2014 3:49:01 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady; Gamecock
This is why I don’t understand why so many Freepers equate Christianity with conservatism.

Give Christians Conservatives someone to vote *for*, and then you'll understand.

27 posted on 06/23/2014 3:52:41 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

bump


28 posted on 06/23/2014 3:53:44 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: roamer_1; A_perfect_lady

**Give Christians Conservatives someone to vote *for*, and then you’ll understand.**

Give us churches that preach Christ crucified and it won’t be an issue.


29 posted on 06/23/2014 4:16:01 PM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: Gamecock
Give us churches that preach Christ crucified and it won’t be an issue.

I appreciate the spin on my comment, but you are kinda being redundant ; )

30 posted on 06/23/2014 4:49:52 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Not at all. Go to the top of the thread and you’ll see I’m not. But this is the example of theological liberalism.

At the other end of the spectrum are churches that preach moralism. Jesus is trotted out, but the law is held supreme.


31 posted on 06/23/2014 5:39:22 PM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: A_perfect_lady
but it's a pick-and-choose business.

Pick and choose Christianity? You mean pick from some parts of the scripture and not others? That's not following the Lord, that's following self.

Jesus said "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23). The Christian must deny their own way and follow Christ and His word. It is not pick and choose.

32 posted on 06/24/2014 5:12:10 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: fwdude

On the worship aspect, basically you have to avoid the Megachurch-like PCAs. Otherwise, the RPW seems pretty solid.


33 posted on 06/24/2014 7:18:24 AM PDT by rwfromkansas ("Carve your name on hearts, not marble." - C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: sr4402
Pick and choose Christianity? You mean pick from some parts of the scripture and not others? That's not following the Lord, that's following self.

Nevertheless, that is what Christians do. They say they don't, but they do. I don't know anyone who has given away all their wealth to follow Jesus.

34 posted on 06/24/2014 7:35:31 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: rwfromkansas
On the worship aspect, basically you have to avoid the Megachurch-like PCAs.

I think that would apply to nearly all mega-churches, regardless of affiliation. They are just big corporations with a customer base, for the most part.

35 posted on 06/24/2014 7:36:14 AM PDT by fwdude (The last time the GOP ran an "extremist," Reagan won 44 states.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
Nevertheless, that is what Christians do. They say they don't, but they do. I don't know anyone who has given away all their wealth to follow Jesus.

As the scripture says "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". Yet the good news is that the Lord Jesus Christ has stood in our place and taken our failures, mistakes and sin upon Himself on the Cross for folks like us.

And because of His love, we reform ourselves as much as possible daily to His word. For all Christians, it is a process and a place Not already arrived at.

Do you know Christ?

36 posted on 06/24/2014 8:58:20 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402

And Democrats who are Christians are no more sinners than Republicans who are Christians. A Democrat who wants to feed the poor is no less Christian than a Republican who wants to end abortion. In fact, the Democrat who wants to feed the poor and resists judging fallen women is closer to Jesus’ actual teachings. That was my only point.


37 posted on 06/24/2014 9:22:41 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: Gamecock

Our PCA church announced that, unlike the PCUSA, they voted to reaffirm the defense of marriage. While there was no dancing in the aisles, there were sustained and enthusiastic applauses.


38 posted on 06/24/2014 4:43:46 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: A_perfect_lady; Gamecock

I find it most difficult to understand how a Bible believing Christian can be for liberal socialist causes. Items like abortion, support of gay marriage, and other causes are completely opposed to God’s word. It isn’t surprising God was boo’ed at the Democratic convention and almost removed from the platform for they have become socialists.

You will know who are true believers by their fruits. And I certainly don’t believe a true believer will boo God or support such behavior-whatever they happen to say.


39 posted on 06/24/2014 4:57:37 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: HarleyD
While there was no dancing in the aisles, there were sustained and enthusiastic applauses.

Such unrestrained enthusiasm is most unPresbyterian. ;-)

40 posted on 06/24/2014 5:12:59 PM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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