Posted on 05/21/2014 3:55:37 AM PDT by markomalley
This may be a slightly more nuanced view that warrants some thought.
I would take issue with the idea that people can be ‘so opposed to God’. How can we define this? Is there a level of disobedience to God’s Word, or is this simply the rejection of his grace through Christ? We must bear in mind that in the face of God’s judgement, we all deserve to perish in hell. It is by grace alone we find salvation.
God is the locus of all good, and he is undeniably omnipresent in our world. No matter how much a human being suffers in this universe, he is surrounded by God. This is what makes it hard to imagine a place without God’s love, because we have no way of experiencing such a place in this life, no matter how terrible the world may seem.
I think it therefor plausible that the ultimate state of bliss would be as close to God as possible, and the ultimate state of suffering would be as far from God as possible. Note that this doesn’t necessarily interfere with God’s omnipresence, since we are talking and spirit states rather than locations here. The reason why it is logical not to capitalize heaven or hell is because they do not possess the properties of actual ‘places’ as we understand that word. Heaven and hell do not have county lines where they end, neither in space nor time, whereas you can actually leave the location of ‘New York’, and New York has a finite existence in time, ceasing to exist at the end of the world or sooner.
Now, while I would say I have a problem with believing we humans are burned in Gods’ presence, there may be merit to that applying to fallen angels. We simply don’t know enough about these angelic realms to say definitively, but notice that Michael in the Book of Jude responds to satan by saying “The Lord rebuke you!”. We can only conclude God has a definite negative effect on these entities.
Here is a most interesting verse to look at in Matthew. Jesus sends the 12 disciples bearing his message to ‘the lost people of Israel’, with the power of miracles as a sign of the Son, the prophetic savior.
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.”
This is very telling. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in an act of divine judgement for their sins. Sins so grievous, there had been an outcry against them in the land. The people there were undoubtedly the worst on earth. God’s punishment upon them is described as such.
“Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.”
The cities have been burned to nothing, vaporized. Why, after such absolute destruction in response to great sin, does Jesus say that the judgement for those who will not hear His message will be even more unbearable than the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah? Why is rejecting the message of the Son worse than the egregious acts of the cities God laid waste to?
I think what this is telling us is that God’s judgement for our sins could take the form of all manner of horrible fates, from being burned with fire to being swallowed by the earth. However if grace is offered by God and rejected, our judgement is even less bearable, for we have turned our backs on God, and chosen to be without Him. The worst fate one can face is an eternity removed from God because we refused to hear the message of the Son.
Actually, this says that those who take the mark of the beast will be tortured before/in the sight of the angels and the Lamb, and their torment is “to perpetuity perpetuity,” “eis aion aion.”
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And again I think these references to lakes of fire can be explained as metaphorical imagery that the people of the time could understand, the torture of being burned. It is not a randomly occurring singular metaphor either.
“Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
Now, I sincerely doubt such a place as hell would have a sun that it orbits around to create what we know as ‘day and night’. There would be little purpose for God to create such celestial objects in this realm, less need for anyone in hell to need a day or a night. This is poetic license.
Or the book of life. Humans read books for reference and instruction. Would God need to have books be opened to have people’s works listed? He is omniscient. This is not a literal opening of books that God will have done at the time of Judgement, but a metaphor for people’s works being of focus at that time.
These verses are instructive and indicate the punishment before God and the angels, but do they necessitate a continued presence of the divine for the “for ever and ever” spoken of? Or is it that they pass into the state of judgement before all present as they enter hell.
Be careful with Psalms. They are a compilation of Hebrew hymns and prayers, and therefor are much more shrouded in their meaning than almost all other sections of the Book.
Oh, I am well aware. David was probably using hyperbole but his point was that God would be with him always.
Yes, and I am very much in agreement with what you said about God not forcing anyone to be with Him. This is an idea I first heard listening to William Lane Craig’s commentary on hell. I think it gels well with God’s dedication to free will as a ultimate good in humans for it allows the choice between good and evil, far more valuable than the programed state.
When discussing hell with non-believers, who often take issue with the concept as some kind of coercion or unfairness, I always point out that since the coming of Jesus, God has given the choice of hell to you as another alternative to being with Him for all eternity.
Their common response is “that’s not fair! So I have to love God or I suffer for eternity?!”
To which I tell them that God cannot help his nature, that He is the locus of all good, and you have to accept that a world apart from him cannot logically be a good place. It is void of good.
It is like choosing a world void of heat, and then complaining that its too cold.
Agreed that in that context “day or night” means there’s no respite. Agreed there’ll be no celestial objects in the eternal state to give light. (Rev. 21:23 and 22:5)
I don’t think the “Book of Life” is for God’s reference, but for ours. He’s omniscient and records everything, including any events we hope are hidden. This is a trial for the ultimate destination of our eternal souls and that’s His evidence.
The term/phrase is used too many times for me to not believe it’s an actual document, or will be perceived by us as an actual document.
Book
An actual document we can touch and feel, though we lack form?
The bible is a timeless book, for all generations...The biblical explanation for Hell is not hard to understand...What's difficult is to believe it...
Interesting but I wouldn’t put my faith in that tradition. Abraham believed God, this was his saving grace.
And you believed him???
After these people get a taste of hell, there is not a single person who would chose hell over heaven/Jesus...
Have you ever read Dante's "Inferno" or the contemporary version by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle? This jibes with those very well. The type of punishment is based on the nature of your sin.
He was expressing an opinion, here in America we are allowed to do that.
I wouldn’t believe what you believe about Abraham....not that I saw what that might be. Is it your/Christians’ position that Abraham our patriarch is somewhere other than in the Spiritual Garden of Eden, loosely translated as Heaven?
Where in G-d’s creation isn’t He found? If He created it, and is not found there, is he separate from it? (ie, the Hell you speak of?)
With full warning that it’s (only) the Jewish viewpoint of the Jew King David, but it literally means, to Jews, that G-d is everywhere. We are ‘within’ Him, and He encompasses all realms/worlds.
BTW, the Psalm you quote means that we (Jews) are always obligated by G-d’s commandments for us. (and Non-Jews by their 7 commandments.) In the highest heights the righteous are still obligated, and in the lowest depths the sinners are still obligated to perform the commandments.
You mean to tell me Christians look at it otherwise? ;)
I believe in a literal heaven and hell. If I’m wrong - I lose nothing - if you’re wrong - you lose everything. Choose wisely!
.......“In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire”......
This does no doubt indicates great suffering....however I find it interesting the description of a physical body...”sight” is clearly evident, the ability to “identify people known” and distance from them, the idea he looked “Up”...and he has a “voice” where he calls out to Abraham.
Additionally “asking for pity” would indicate he finds no relief from his suffering.
Also...It appears to me “he has memory” of what life once was and that he is no longer in that place....a keen awareness of surroundings via his senses as well.
So in my opinion possible “the body” in life may very well be the one also in hell..”without dying” as is now.
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