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To: cothrige
You know, it is all really quite amusing. You have argued that all clerical opinions are Church teaching, and then when confronted with a pope denying that, you pretend that somehow this opinion means nothing.

I have not argued that all clerical opinions are Church teaching. I have argued that the laity is not authorized by the Catholic Church to decide the meanings of the Church teachings on their own, without Clerical approval.

In addition, YOU are denying the authority of clerical statements as mere "opinion," not me. In fact, you do it quite directly, and then directly reverse yourself, post after post, and accuse me of what you just said. You're either insane, or the most contemptuously inept debater I have ever come across. And it certainly isn't amusing - it is hypocrisy. Sane people don't find hypocrisy amusing. Did you know that? Or is it news to you?

In addition, you're still arguing that the laity can decide for itself what the "promulgated" teachings of the Church are, and need not follow the interpretation of these "promulgations" by any particular Cleric of any rank, and therefore can decide for themselves what these "promulgations" mean, how they should be applied, and every other intepretive application of them.

And of course, that's not Catholicism. Canon law denies such interpretive powers to the laity. The MOST the laity can do is confront an erreant cleric with a discontinuity in their teachings and seek clarification, and if that is not forthcoming, appeal to a higher level cleric. But that's it.

"...at least you are thinking, and so I will address it."

And you, Sir, are an ass, and I am done with you.

74 posted on 05/13/2014 9:37:09 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Talisker
In addition, you're still arguing that the laity can decide for itself what the "promulgated" teachings of the Church are,

Not true. I have never even suggested anything like that. Official Church documents are all undeniably what they are, and anything the Church teaches is always presented very clearly. There is no ambiguity in it. Nobody is able to "decide for themselves" what is official and what is not, and I have most certainly never even implied anything of the sort. Opinions, comments, observations, asides and such like are not official, and the Church does not present them as teachings.

The Church has never taught that "theological opinions" are binding on its faithful, and that is a fact. And you cannot quote anything stating otherwise. All you can do is keep pretending that "opinion" and "doctrine" are synonyms and use that to try to argue that not agreeing with a personal opinion, which is entirely possible, is to automatically reject a doctrine. Sorry, but that is just not true. You don't know what you are talking about.

and need not follow the interpretation of these "promulgations" by any particular Cleric of any rank

I have also not said this. If a "Cleric of any rank," which I will take to mean somebody with the authority to determine such a thing, gives an authoritative interpretation of something then the faithful must respond in obedience. When a bishop sets down a requirement for his diocese, then we must obey. When a congregation in Rome makes a decision about something before them, then we must obey. When the Pope changes the law for the Church, then we must obey. But, all of these will be issued in such a way that they are clearly from the Church, and not mere opinions of the person they originally come from. None of them will be issued in an interview with a magazine, or as a statement in an airplane to some reporters.

and therefore can decide for themselves what these "promulgations" mean, how they should be applied, and every other intepretive application of them.

This is very vague language. No Catholic is free to contradict any interpretation given by Holy Mother Church. But, in matters which are not defined directly then we are free to interpret insofar as we understand the facts available to us. But, there really is less difference between cleric and lay than you think there is. My local parish priest is, in most cases, no more free than I to interpret the Church's teachings on matters of the faith. If he thinks he can interpret teachings on abortion to not apply to cases of rape (as I was once told by a priest) then he is wrong. His state as a cleric and parish priest does not give him the authority to change the teaching of the Church regarding abortion. If a lay person were to act on that and go get an abortion they would still suffer the same canonical penalties they otherwise would, because the priest could not "interpret" that teaching in that way. His being a cleric does not give him anymore authority in that regard than it does me.

In fact, you do it quite directly, and then directly reverse yourself, post after post, and accuse me of what you just said.

That is not true. I have never contradicted anything I have posted. You keep stating this and yet you have yet to produce one single example of it when challenged.

And you, Sir, are an ass, and I am done with you.

Well, as always, you do take the high ground.

75 posted on 05/13/2014 10:57:00 PM PDT by cothrige
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