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To: Talisker
C’mon, you can do it. It’s a simple question.

Actually, you didn't post any question. That was a statement. However, for the sake of one last attempt at demonstrating just how silly your entire position is let me lay it out for you clearly, as if you really had asked a question. I believe that every Catholic is obligated to obey the Church in all issues of faith and morals. Where I differ from your strange assertions is that I actually believe there is a teaching and that for it to be followed it must be understood. There can be no obedience where there is ignorance. You argue that all Catholics must "obey" all "theological opinions" of all clergy at all times. Hmmm. Very interesting. Let us consider this. There are priests and bishops who deny the resurrection, and others who think that atheists are saved by virtue of their denial of God. Others think that Buddhism is equal to Christianity, and others who think that Jews are all going to hell. Some think that gay marriage is just fine and dandy, and others still who believe that black people bear the mark of Cain. Some think that only Catholics can ever be saved, and others think hell doesn't exist. Good luck in trying to find anyone who can be "obedient" to all these authoritative clerics at the same time.

The real truth is that the Church is indefectible, and Catholic teaching cannot be changed. She cannot alter the Apostolic faith even if some high ranking churchman thought it should be done. If an infallible truth is no longer the truth, then it was never infallible, and gone is the requirement for obedience. No Catholic is required, and never has been, to simply accept any particular personal theological opinion of any churchman, even a pope.

What is confusing you is what confuses a lot of people. Authority. Opinions, in most cases, have none. The Church, however, does. That authority is expressed not by opinions of any and every cleric, but in authoritative councils and documents, and these do not disappear when another document comes along. They all, taken as a whole, present a complete picture by which anybody, including popes, can learn the real Apostolic faith without any question of what is true, and what is just speculation. The Councils of Nicea and Constantinople are still as binding and infallible as they were when they were convened by Constantine the Great and Theodosius. Nothing in them was ever unwritten. The Catholic faith is not contained in the last comment given by somebody in purple or red, or even white. It is expressed throughout the history of the Church, and in all of her dogmatic pronouncements, liturgy and prayers. Even wise and pedagogical comments by high ranking and authoritative clerics can only be mined for the deeper truths by hearing them with a fully developed Catholic mindset, fertilized by contemplation of the constant witness of the Church.

Just consider a deeply thoughtful and intelligent man, Pope Benedict XVI, who published his own thoughts on the life of our Lord in his book Jesus of Nazareth. In the foreword to that work he took great pains to insist that his opinions in the book not be seen as authoritative, and yet he was the pope at the time. How much more authoritative can you get? But, he specifically said that "everyone is free, then, to contradict me." You would say that we Catholics are required to accept every opinion from every churchman as the gospel truth, and yet the highest churchman of all contradicted you outright. You just don't grok Catholicism.

Now, you can either persist in your errors about what Catholics are required to believe, and what constitutes the dogmatic faith (on which you aren't even in the same country, let alone ballpark), or you can accept the truth. I really don't care. I have gone above and beyond in demonstrating the reality to you, and now you can do as you like.

Have a nice day.

63 posted on 05/08/2014 10:57:02 PM PDT by cothrige
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To: cothrige
If your constant dripping, condescending, insulting arrogance is the result of truly "grokking" the Catholic Church, then may the entirety of its teachings die an immediate and permanent death for utterly corrupting and destroying every last shred of the humility and goodwill of human beings.

Other than that, your bizarre statement that: "There are priests and bishops who deny the resurrection, and others who think that atheists are saved by virtue of their denial of God. Others think that Buddhism is equal to Christianity, and others who think that Jews are all going to hell. Some think that gay marriage is just fine and dandy, and others still who believe that black people bear the mark of Cain. Some think that only Catholics can ever be saved, and others think hell doesn't exist. Good luck in trying to find anyone who can be "obedient" to all these authoritative clerics at the same time" is a perfect example of the speculative, utterly non-referenced nonsense you're spouting as Church teachings. Such "examples" as you gave are apostate, so why would you hold them up as requiring obedience?

The simple fact, which seems to send you into some sort of fit where you feel compelled to imitate an 18th century vicar sitting at high table and talking through his nose to a servant, is that the Church reserves final authority in spiritual teachings, above any Catholic's personal opinions. You finally ramble out that general idea, but you do it so disdainfully that it is hard to separate it from your indignation. Yet from where does such defensiveness come? Do I challenge it? No. Do I argue with it? No. I merely point out its existence. YOU try to confuse it with Catholics obeying errant clergy. Why would you do that? Why would you want to have both sides at once - both misrepresenting the nature of Catholic obedience, while declaring its existence at the same time?

I'll tell you why - because you're trying to soften the point I'm making. You're drowing it in overweaning contempt and insults based on fictional statements vague enough to be bumper stickers, in order to create cognitive dissonance. Then you're adding to that by making blanket dismissals of general points and creating absurd examples to further bury the issue, so that by the time you actually affirm the requirement of obedience, you can pretend that I have some bizarre problem with authority and some strange belief that Catholics aren't allowed to think for themselves.

Your defensiveness, and your massive effort at hiding a very simple truth, is intellectual dishonesty of the the highest degree. Because IN FACT, Catholics can have any opinion they want - but being Catholic means that they cannot accept any conclusion they have that is inconsistant with Church teachings. That is the literal truth. AND it is something that is a HUGE problem for the Church, since so many (especially American) Catholics believe that their opinions are valid enough to not only act on, but live within their understanding of Church teachings - and gay marriage, abortion, and other issues prove the seriousness of this erroneous conflation beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is a genuine crisis for the Church, and has created a tremendous split within Catholicism amongst Catholics about what they believe the Church is all about. And ANY resolutions of this problem are directly threatened, hampered, misdirected and confused by people like YOU who spend so much effort trying to destroy a clear understanding of the problem, in your misguided belief that refusing to accept its existence somehow protects the Church.

And THAT is what I am pointing out, you scheming, manipulative, insufferable, pompous ass.

64 posted on 05/09/2014 11:45:07 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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