The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general "Catholic" category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.
Evidently the SSPX view of the FSSP/communion with the Pope is available here.
The current guideline reads:
Additionally, the label “All Catholic Caucus” may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Vatican II or Schisms or Sects.
The SSPX will be included by default in a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered.
My objective is to avoid disruption on caucus threads.
What are your opinions?
This is ridiculous. The FSSP exists BECAUSE of the so-called “schismatic act” of abp. Lefebvre consecrating bishops without papal mandate. The FSSP was formed immediately following the consecrations by JPII himself in order to provide a home for traditionalists within the Church who could not in conscience continue to be members of the SSPX. The FSSP operates with proper episcopal approval everywhere it is active. Anyone who is trying to excommunicate the faithful who attend FSSP Masses is out of his mind.
Sounds like you’e proposing to lump the FSSP together with the SSPX, either in the Caucus or not. I think it’s a bad idea.
There’s no reason to include the FSSP in the Catholic Caucus “exclusion” category.
It is not in any manner affiliated with SSPX. As a point of fact, the Church establishes FSSP parishes adjacent to SSPX churches in many or most cases, so that local Catholics have a in-Church alternative to the SSPX for the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (using Roman Rite Liturgical Books of 1962). An example would be SSPX in Post Falls, ID and FSSP in Coeur d'Alene, a handful of miles apart and the closest example to me.
Notice the reference to the Bishop of Boise Diocese in the following:
St. Joan of Arc Roman Catholic Chapel is home to the Traditional Latin Mass Community located in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho operating with the approval of the Bishop of the Diocese of Boise and served by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.
http://www.stjoanarc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87&Itemid=53
“The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general ‘Catholic’ category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.”
That is a lunatic idea.
The FSSP is in good standing with the Bishop of Rome. If you start excluding genuinely Catholic groups from Catholic Caucus threads, then you've vitiated the purpose of the label. If the decision of the actual Catholic Church in communion with the actual Bishop of Rome isn't sufficient to define who is Catholic and who is not, then the meaning of “Catholic” as used in the Religion Forum becomes unmoored from reality.
As well, ebb tide is NOT a member of the FSSP (unless I've missed the fact that he is ordained or on the road to ordination). Ebb tide is a CATHOLIC. Pure and simple. No modifiers. No qualifiers. Just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill CATHOLIC.
The FSSP is a society of PRIESTS, DEACONS, and those studying to be PRIESTS and DEACONS.
Laypeople who are not in the seminary on their way to ordination are not members of the FSSP.
Furthermore, it is a society of Pontifical Right, meaning that it answers only to the pope. Is that Catholic enough? As a layperson, ebb tide is entitled to assist at Mass at any Mass celebrated publicly by priests with faculties in communion with the Church. That doesn't include the Masses offered by the SSPX, but it does include those offered by the FSSP.
My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.
What's next - throwing out "Novus Ordo" Catholics who have problems with Pope Francis? I guess I fall into that category. I assist pretty much at the ordinary form of the Mass, in the vernacular, every Sunday and holy day. But sometimes, the pope says things that strike me as foolish, poorly thought-out, badly expressed, or just plain old silly. Am I next to be excluded from Catholic Caucus threads?
Ebb tide is, as far as I can see, a devout, faithful Catholic who is critical of this pope and of Blessed Pope John Paul II. I'm unsure of his views of Benedict XVI. Contrary to popular rumor, Catholics may be critical of a pope's actions and words, as long as they submit to the legitimate, binding Magisterium of the Church. Not every utterance and action of the pope is part of the Magisterium. It's not all infallible (by a very long shot).
My suggestion is to let actual Catholics hash out these issues among ourselves.
sitetest
If the other poster in question claims to be a member of FSSP (which is likely, as has been mentioned, a misnomer) then he is in violation of the Constitutions of that Society:
6.Founded in the spirit of the apostolic letter Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta of Pope John Paul II (2 July 1988), the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter professes its fidelity to the Roman Pontiff, who, according to the words of the First Vatican Council (Pastor æternus), is the “successor of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, the Father and Doctor of all Christians” (see Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, n. 22). “Each one of its members is held to obey the Supreme Pontiff as his highest superior” (Can. 590, §2).
Of course, though, dealing with that would be a matter between the member and his superior.
I would propose that if there is a poster or a FReeper (there is a difference) who is causing problems, then that poster should be the one receiving fraternal correction, a medicinal remedy, or expiation...rather than messing with your very well considered caucus definitions.
For example, how many people could be routinely attending an SSPX or similar Mass even if they wanted to ? More fleas want to ride a well cared for old hound than can find one but they're still fleas whether they can find a hound or not.
Basically, some folks aren't happy unless they get to nail their own list of complaints about the Catholic Church to any door they see.
Like you, I can only look at a posting history and get an idea of where someone is coming from. I suppose that as long as someone says they're Catholic in full Communion with the Church the same way Nancy Pelosi echos John Hus but claims to be a faithful Catholic, then that's how they see their Self.
I wasn't actually thinking about whether or not a given poster should be commenting when a asked, "SSPX much?", I was wondering how someone believes they're helping anything by trying to read their viewpoint into even a really trivial bit of news.
I run across a lot of little things I feel would be useful, or very useful, to refer to when dealing with more complete treatments of topics in the news but which in and of themselves don't prove much of anything. Having all that available on FR seemed like a good idea as long as posting it didn't just add more noise than signal. Obviously, there's no real way to post such things and therefore no need to.
I am sorry for the hassle this has caused you and thought I had taken steps to avoid the need for your involvement. I stand corrected.
**What are your opinions? **
It is distressing in some cases when trying to post a Catholic Caucus thread about a current event and labeling it only Catholic Caucus, since these supposed sedevacantists also choose to post on such a thread, demeaning the Pope and the Vatican.
Just my opinion.