Moses or Christ? Paul’s Reply To Dispensational Error

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org ^ | Charles D. Alexander

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Now until you can recognize that fact I will not respond to you again.<<<

Is this absolutely, positively your final, final, final, final, ..., final notice you will not be responding to me again, Cynical Bear?

Philip

[FourtySeven]

I found this helpful for this question.

Did John the Baptist and Jesus contradict each other?

[PhilipFreneau]

From your link:

>>>In this case, Jesus is speaking metaphorically. John the Baptist is not literally Elijah, but his heralding the arrival of the Messiah fulfills the messianic prophecy concerning Elijah.<<<

Jesus did not say or imply he was speaking metaphorically, nor did he deny it: so that is a reasonable assumption. I do agree that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecy, in its entirety. To believe otherwise would require me to spiritualize the scriptures, which is a no-no.

Anyway, thanks for the link.

Philip

[FourtySeven]

You’re welcome.

[af_vet_1981]

Since the Words of Jesus will judge me on the last day, I would be hard-pressed (or, be an absolute fool) to NOT believe Jesus when he said,

Philip, I know you have written of your background as an engineer, and that you have many years. I entreat you as a father. You may seek to solve these mysteries like you would an engineering problem. They can only be understood by the Spirit of God, in meekness and faith. We can not understand what He does not reveal to us. We are responsible for what He does reveal. He has bequeathed us unity. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Note the future tense concerning Elijah; he then says Elijah has already come; note the past tense; two advents for Elijah; two advents for Messiah. Note all the prophecies for which there is no credible fulfillment yet, pending the second advent.

• And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
• And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Now look at the Didache 16 says, which dates from the late First or early Second Century (after 70 AD/CE); your view does not conform to this tradition of the early Catholic and Apostolic Church which refer to the obvious texts we have already discussed (2 Thess 2, etal.). We must therefore in good conscience reject it. Preterism clearly does not conform to the it does not agree with us who seek unity with our brethren.
1. Watch over your life, that your lamps are never quenched, and that your loins are never unloosed. Be ready, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
2. Come together often, seeking the things that are good for your souls. A life of faith will not profit you if you are not made perfect at the end of time.
3. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters will be plenty, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate.
4. When lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another, and then the world-deceiver will appear claiming to be the Son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do iniquitous things that have not been seen since the beginning of the world.
5. Then humankind will enter into the fire of trial, and many will be made to stumble and many will perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved from under the curse itself.
6. And then the signs of the truth will appear: the first sign, an opening of the heavens; the second sign, the sounding of the trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead—
7. not of every one, but as it is said: "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him."
8. Finally, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory."

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Note the future tense concerning Elijah; he then says Elijah has already come; note the past tense; two advents for Elijah; two advents for Messiah. Note all the prophecies for which there is no credible fulfillment yet, pending the second advent.<<<

I don't see it. This is the passage in question:

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Mat 17:10-13 KJV)

Paraphrased:

1) The disciples asked him, "…must Elias come first?"

2) Jesus replied, "Yes, Elias must come first and restore all things…" (That's what the prophecy says. Jesus was repeating the prophecy.)

3) Jesus adds, "But he has already come."

No matter how hard I try, I cannot squeeze two Elijah's out of that passage using regular English grammar. Let's try another passage:

"And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him." (Mark 9:11-13 KJV)

Jesus said the same thing. Besides, the kingdom is already established, and will last forever. It will be a much nicer place after Satan is defeated.

I am unsure why you posted the long passage from Isaiah 11 & 12. The only thing I could find that might be related was the "second recovery of the remnant." The "first recovery" is mentioned in the previous chapter, Isaiah 10, after the punishment of Assyria:

"Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks." (Isa 10:12)

The next 7 verses talks about Assyria, then it talks about the return of the remnant:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." (Isa 10:12)

Chapter 11 begins with the appearance and ministry of Jesus (the Branch.) It is a completely different prophecy, relating to events centuries apart. This time Jesus himself is sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24.) The references to Zion and his holy mountain are the same: the heavenly mount Sion where New Jerusalem is located.

Other prophecies that mention the Branch can be found in at least Isaiah 4; Jer 23 & 33; and Zech 3 & 6. Isaiah 4 is very informative.

Regarding your mention of the Didache:

"Watch over your life, that your lamps are never quenched, and that your loins are never unloosed. Be ready, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (16:1-3)

Jesus said those same things to his disciples:

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Mat 24:42 KJV)

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Mat 25:13 KJV)

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36 KJV)

Peter said the same things:

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." (1 Pet 4:7 KJV)

Peter believed the coming of Christ was near. Do you really think Jesus and Peter were instructing the disciples and others, respectively, to watch from their graves for 2000 years?

No. That makes no sense. Every time-context Jesus gave his disciples (e.g., this generation, shall not taste of death, etc.) meant exactly what we would believe if He told us those things today. We would believe He was coming to resurrect us in our generation, as he did those in AD 70, on schedule.

Philip