Replies

“Everyone *ever and always* has been saved by grace through faith, imputed as righteousness... to include every soul since the world began.”

This is good to hear, which means I can basically ignore everything you say on keeping “Torah”, as you are not saying that I am damned for ignoring it.

Thus, I can stand in my liberty:

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.”
(Gal 5:1-5)

None of the things you would ask me to do “profit” me in any way. But, I suppose, if a Christian wants to burden himself with the yoke of Moses, just out of self-righteousness sake, he may do so.

But as for me, I’ll fulfill all the law with love, and leave others to their vain religious acts:

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

“The question at hand at the Jerusalem Council was whether (presumably adult) male converts had to be circumcised in order to be saved. It was not a referendum on Torah.”

The question at hand at the Jerusalem Council wasn’t just about “circumcision,” but also whether or not we should be “commanded” to keep the law of Moses:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

If, perhaps, you want us to believe that they still “recommend” that we follow the law of Moses, it says that nowhere in the text, but actually repudiates it. For example, prohibitions against meats, as in the Jewish dietary laws, is called a doctrine of the devil:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”
(1Ti 4:1-3)

All creatures are good to eat:

Ti_4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Compare to Leviticus:

Lev_11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lev_11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lev_11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lev_11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you

“There is only the ‘whole’ of Torah - It cannot be added to, nor taken from... Either we are under it all, or we are not under it at all, “

So it follows, if I can rend the dietary laws out of the New Testament, that I can rend “all” of the laws of Moses out too, since it is “all” or nothing.

“No one has ever been justified by keeping Torah except Messiah. That is not it’s purpose.”

But how did Christ actually understand “Torah”? While, certainly, the Jews under the law were “ritually unclean,” according to the law, were they to think that there isn’t a deeper purpose in the law? Let’s ask Christ:

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Compare to Leviticus above!

How about the Sabbath?

“Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.”
(Mat 12:5-8)

If Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, may He not dispense with it whenever, and however He pleases, and lead His apostles to do however He pleases as well?

Where is your Sabbath day then? Is Christ a sinner for doing good works on the Sabbath?

From Dr. Gill’s commentary quoting R. David Kimchi in Josh. vi. 11.:

“...as he was the institutor of the sabbath among the Jews, that being a ritual, and of mere positive institution, could dispense with it, and even abrogate it at his pleasure. The Jews so far agree to this, that he that commanded the law of the sabbath, could dispense with it; they say, that

“the day on which Jericho was taken was the sabbath day; and that though they slew and burnt on the sabbath day, “he that commanded the observation of the sabbath, commanded the profanation of it”.’’

And since Christ is greater than the temple, and has all the perfections of the divine nature in him, is equal to the Father in power and glory; and even as mediator, has all power in heaven and earth given him; so as he is Lord of all other things, he is of the sabbath, and has a power of dispensing with it, and even of abolishing it; see Col_2:16 and since the Lord of the sabbath had a power of dispensing with it, and made use of it in the cases of David and his men, and of the priests in the temple formerly; the Pharisees ought not to think it strange, that the Son of man, who is equally Lord of the sabbath, dispensed with it in his disciples now.”

I will also add:

Mar_2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

If you attempt to lord the Sabbath day over us, for example, all you do is make the “man for the Sabbath,” rather than the Sabbath for man. It becomes nothing more than a needless yoke, you who force it on us, rather than for man to enjoy, which was its true purpose.

“And you will note that their reasoning included the idea that Moses was taught in every town, so that the convert could learn as they went along.”

The part of your sentence that says “so that the convert could learn as they went along,” is nowhere in the text, and is purely your invention. And, in fact, it contradicts the scriptures, since if “the law of Moses” was to be obeyed, albeit as Christians were slowly taught it by UNBELIEVING Jews, then the contention of the believing group of Pharisees is confirmed, only slowly, and the Apostles are in the wrong for commanding against it and in living “like Gentiles”:

Gal_2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

How, indeed, can you presume that the Jewish Apostles, who lived like Gentiles, were compelling Gentiles to live like Jews?

“Everyone *ever and always* has been saved by grace through faith, imputed as righteousness... to include every soul since the world began.” -roamer

I do NOT have to obey the speed limit in Jerusalem when driving in Denver. -elsie

Galatians 2: 14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

...

Ephesians 2: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This is good to hear, which means I can basically ignore everything you say on keeping “Torah”, as you are not saying that I am damned for ignoring it.

Truly, the disposition of your eternal soul is far above my pay grade.

Thus, I can stand in my liberty:

As for me and mine, we shall serve YHWH.

Gal 5 (1-5)

Do you really believe Paul is talking about Torah, which the Tanakh proclaims to be good and righteous, even the way of righteousness? This is the yoke of bondage? And again, the passage is speaking of justification... Keeping Torah has never justified anyone - So how is it that he can be speaking of Torah?

None of the things you would ask me to do “profit” me in any way.

It isn't about profiting for yourself - it is about obedience to YHWH.

But, I suppose, if a Christian wants to burden himself with the yoke of Moses, just out of self-righteousness sake, he may do so.

LOL! So because I strive to follow the way of the Father, the way declared by the Son, I am being self-righteous? Quite the opposite - I know I am a servant, and that I have nothing of my own. I simply endeavor to follow the Instructions of my Master, to demonstrate my love for Him to HIM, and express my gratitude for what He has given me by trying to do as HE says. There is where liberty lies - In the yoke of YHWH.

But as for me, I’ll fulfill all the law with love, and leave others to their vain religious acts:

Which 'religious acts' are considered vain by YHWH? "In vain do they worship me..."

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The question at hand at the Jerusalem Council wasn’t just about “circumcision,” but also whether or not we should be “commanded” to keep the law of Moses:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Pharisees consider their tradition to be a part of the Law of Moses... Similar to the Catlicks, whose tradition is made inseparable from the Bible. It is that tradition that Yeshua destroyed at every turn, and it is not surprising that there were many that had a hard time letting go of it - to include Peter.

So I take it that it is your belief that eating blood, meats that were strangled or offered to idols, and fornicating, are the only sinful things for Christians? Is that really what you think? After all, this is all the conclusion of the council stated in the literal.

Isn't that odd, as Peter was keeping Kosher at least a decade and a half after the resurrection (meats and sheets vision). Again, How can it be that Torah, which is called good and righteous is a 'doctrine of devils'? Was David lying? Were the Prophets lying when they said the whole world will follow Torah in the Kingdom? Before you and after you there is Torah. How can it be that Torah is not for you too?

As to 1Tim 4:

abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Which foods did YHWH create to be received? Torah will tell you.

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Which food is sanctified by the Word of YHWH? Torah will tell you.

If Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, may He not dispense with it whenever, and however He pleases, and lead His apostles to do however He pleases as well?

No. For if he disposes of the Sabbath, then he is a false prophet, and not to be hearkened to.

Where is your Sabbath day then?

Right where it has always been since the seventh day of creation, when it was sanctified by the Creator of all, as an eternal precept.

Is Christ a sinner for doing good works on the Sabbath?

Show me where it is so in the Torah. If your ox falls in a well on the Sabbath, don't you get him out? If your sheep gives birth on the sabbath, don't you ease it and watch over it? Do you not milk your cow on the sabbath? Must she suffer because of it? Don't you feed and water your animals on the Sabbath? Don't be silly.

From Dr. Gill’s commentary quoting R. David Kimchi in Josh. vi. 11.: “...as he was the institutor of the sabbath among the Jews, that being a ritual, and of mere positive institution, could dispense with it, and even abrogate it at his pleasure.

But it was not instituted among the Jews. It was instituted at creation, and given to the Jews with the manna, before the law, so it is not a 'mere positive institution'.

There is nothing I am aware of that says they fought on the Sabbath - It was the 7th day of the siege, not necessarily the Seventh day. But that leads to another question: Do you suppose that Israel, if attacked on the Sabbath, is not allowed to defend herself? Your understanding seems to favor the letter of the law, and not the spirit thereof.

I am not lording anything over anyone. YES the Sabbath is a delight, and a boon to men... But that, in and of itself, requires the observance of the Sabbath, doesn't it? How does not keeping Sabbath make it something for man to enjoy? So much nonsense. And btw, even if I were to cede to you the possibility, it is still a moot point, as there is in no wise *ANY* evidence that Yeshua did what you suppose, nor did any of His apostles. There is *nothing* in the Bible that abolishes the Sabbath, nor moves it to Sunday. It flat ain't there.

The part of your sentence that says “so that the convert could learn as they went along,” is nowhere in the text, and is purely your invention.

I was not quoting. But I will defend the inference, as if not, why would it be there?

And, in fact, it contradicts the scriptures, since if “the law of Moses” was to be obeyed, albeit as Christians were slowly taught it by UNBELIEVING Jews, then the contention of the believing group of Pharisees is confirmed, only slowly, and the Apostles are in the wrong for commanding against it and in living “like Gentiles”:

A proselyte begins with the Noachide law and learns the way of Torah. You seem to suggest that the minute one found YHWH the entire Torah must be immediately kept. That has never been the case. In fact, that intention is made clear by what the Council sent forth - Half of the Noachide law is what they started the proselytes with. You seem to forget that these folks are practicing in the synagogues in and among non-messianic Jews. If it is as you say, there is no WAY that they would be tolerated within the Jewish community, and would be unwelcome in the synagogue. That finally DID occur, but only after decades.

How, indeed, can you presume that the Jewish Apostles, who lived like Gentiles, were compelling Gentiles to live like Jews?

You have taken the verse out of context - Show me in the Torah where a Jew cannot eat among the gentiles. That is Jewish Tradition, not Torah. Peter was bowing to false Tradition.