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To: metmom
"For example, if the action of baptism is what saves, if it causes spiritual reality to occur, then is must do so always, without regard for the condition of the heart of the person being baptized. It must work because it does inherently."

Yes. And as a Catholic, I can only agree. But "physical acts force spiritual changes to occur" is not what the Church teaches. A sacrament done merely for show is not a sacrament.

If kids were "playing baptism" in the swimming pool and baptized each other, it would not be a Baptism. If an actor --- even a priest-actor--- did it with all solemnity in a movie about a holy person, but it was just an "act," it's not a sacrament.

In the Sacrament of Matrimony, if one party or both demonstrably does not or did not mean it, the marriage would be annulled for reasons of fraud/deception, which would make their vows null and would not create a canonical marriage bond.

So the Church does not teach that physical actions in themselves cause spiritual reality to occur. That would be some kind of conjuring trick: or sorcery.

86 posted on 10/05/2013 7:56:51 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("See something, say something.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
In the Sacrament of Matrimony, if one party or both demonstrably does not or did not mean it, the marriage would be annulled for reasons of fraud/deception, which would make their vows null and would not create a canonical marriage bond.

God makes no provision in Scripture for annulments. When two people have sex, they become one flesh. It creates a soul tie to the other person.

Malachi 2:13-16 And this second thing you do. You cover the Lord's altar with tears, with weeping and groaning because he no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14 But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. 16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”

I have heard over and over all kinds of rationale for allowing annulment and most of the scenarios which are presented are so rare that they could virtually never happen, especially if the priest had been doing his job in pre-Cana classes in counseling the couple.

Scripture and Jesus allow for an out for a married person for adultery by their spouse. So there is no need to have an annulment.

For all the RCC's great stand on abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, they sure dropped the ball on protecting marriage by allowing annulments.

87 posted on 10/06/2013 9:50:27 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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