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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You should probably think about what you have written, and think about what I am responding to, then it will become clear. You claimed that Christian interpretations of the Old Testament are forced intrusions that no objective Jew can come up with on his own. So, therefore, I gave an example of a Jew before the time of Christ giving what is supposedly a Christian interpretation. It’s quite simple.

And I still insist that chrstian interpretations are foreign to the correct and traditional understanding of the Hebrew Bible. Let's take a look at your verse.

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant, the Messiah, in whom is my delight, in order that ye may know, and that ye may believe in me, and understand that I am He who was from the beginning ; yea, ages after ages are mine, and beside me there is no God.” (The Chaldee paraphrase on the prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uziel] tr. by C.W.H. Pauli)

Okay. You're quoting a translation of Targum Yonatan from the haftarah for Parashat Bere'shit:

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant, the Messiah, in whom is my delight, in order that ye may know, and that ye may believe in me, and understand that I am He who was from the beginning ; yea, ages after ages are mine, and beside me there is no God.” (The Chaldee paraphrase on the prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uziel] tr. by C.W.H. Pauli)

Yonatan is derashing `avdi (My servant) as Mashiach. But where in the world do you get any chrstian message from this? Other than Yonatan's identification of the Servant with Mashiach the entire verse is present in the original Hebrew, and there is absolutely nothing in it about Mashiach being (chas veshalom!) "G-d in a human body." I suppose that perhaps the plain text (peshat) is that Israel is "My servant" but that Yonatan uses derash to identify the servant with Mashiach also. Here is the translation of the original Hebrew:

Ye are My witnesses says HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen ['atnach, dividing the verse in two]; that ye may know and believe in Me and understand that I am He[;] before Me no god was formed and after Me [another] will not be."

Now--as I said, other than the identification of the servant as Mashiach, everything in the Targum is in the original text. And in the verse G-d is speaking and saying there is none like Him. The only place it says Mashiach is G-d is in chrstian imaginations. You're really going to have to do better than that. But as I said, all these chrstian invocations of the Prophets and the Writings completely misses the point about the Torah being the supreme revelation by which all others are judged.

Speaking of statutes that will stand forever, do you sacrifice an unblemished lamb according to the law of Moses?

First, as a Noachide, I am not commanded to do so. As for the Jews, though . . . you just quoted the text itself; these are "statutes that will stand forever." Does the fact that no altar is currently standing on Har HaBayit change that? Let's take a look first at the text beginning with Numbers 9:15

And on the day of the raising of the tabernacle the cloud covered the tabernacle of the tent of testimony; and in the evening there would be as the appearance of fire until morning. Thus it would always be; the could would cover it [by day] and the appearance of fire at night. And according to the ascent of the cloud [when the cloud ascended] from upon the tent, afterwards the Children of Israel would journey; and in the place where the cloud would stand, there the Children of Israel would encamp. By the instruction [literally "mouth"] of HaShem they would travel, and according to the instruction of HaShem they would camp; all the days which the cloud would abide over the tabernacle they would camp. And when the cloud would continue over the tabernacle many days; the Children of Israel would keep the mishmeret [the sacrificial service] of HaShem and would not travel. There would be the occasion when the cloud would be a number of days over the tabernacle; at the command of HaShem they would camp and at the command of HaShem they would travel. And there would be occasion when the cloud would be [over the tabernacle] from evening to morning and the cloud would be ascended [removed] in the morning and they would travel; or a day and a night and the cloud would be ascended and they would travel. Or two days or a month or a year [literally "days" but often used to denote a year in Biblical Hebrew] when the cloud continued over the tabernacle to dwell above it the Children of Israel would camp and not travel; and when it was ascended they would travel. According to the command of HaShem they would camp and according to the command of HaShem they would travel; the observance [ie, the sacrificial service] they kept according to the command of HaShem by the hand of Moses. Numbers 9:15-23

Now did you read this very carefully? Even in the wilderness the Israelites did not observe the sacrificial service every single day. They observed it on days when they were encamped. Whenever they were traveling, however, the tabernacle and all its vessels were packed up and being carried by the Levites. During these times the daily sacrificial service was suspended. Did you get that? And yet that doesn't mean the commandments had expired but simply that the service could not be carried out during transit.

And this is not the only time when the sacrifices were suspended in Biblical days. What about the times when the service was polluted by idolatry? What about the seventy years of the Exile of Bavel? For seventy years all the Israelites could do was recite prayers, just like today, yet Mashiach hadn't come.

And that brings us to the current Exile, that of Rome, the longest of all. Let's take another look at what the Torah has to say about this period. Please turn to Deuteronomy 28:15 and following which prophesies the current Exile (as the Exile of Bavel was prophesied in Leviticus 26).

I am not going to go to the laborious trouble of translating and posting this very long passage for you, nor do you need me to (I can't cut and paste the English translation at the Mechon-Mamre site because they claim to have full copyright protection). But it makes abundantly clear that at some future time Israel will be scattered among all the nations in lands far away. Now I ask you: do you think the Israelites in exile will be carrying out the sacrificial service when the Temple is destroyed and they aren't even in the Holy Land? Of course not. The Torah in this passage fearsomely warns of just such an exile when there will be no Temple and no Service. It makes this point over and over and over. Read it for yourself.

Now . . . why is this going to happen to the Israelites? What great sin brought this horrible punishment? I'll tell you this much: it wasn't "rejecting the messiah!" There isn't even a commandment in the Torah to "accept" the messiah! Any such "commandment" is a figment of the chrstian imagination.

The verse at the very beginning of this passage (Deuteronomy 28:15) states very plainly what causes all this punishment:

And it will come to pass if you will not hearken to the Voice of HaShem your G-d to keep all His commandments and all His statutes which I command you this day.

That's right. Israel's exiles are always caused by failure to obey the Commandments of the Torah which were commanded by G-d through Moses! Certainly not because at some point in the future they will violate the non-existent commandment that says "thou shalt accept the messiah."

Look. It's late right now and I'm tired. I've spent a lot of time typing out this post. It will have to do for now. I apologize for the many mistypes that doubtless appear throughout.

36 posted on 07/11/2013 7:39:18 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (What would Yehoshu`a [Bin Nun] do?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“Yonatan is derashing `avdi (My servant) as Mashiach. But where in the world do you get any chrstian message from this?”


You miss the point conveniently, which you seem to do often. Jews often claim that Isaiah 53’s servant is Israel. An absurd interpretation, since, obviously, the destruction of the Temple in 70AD wasn’t because they were an innocent lamb taking on the sins of the Gentiles. Jonathan’s quote shows that he believed the “servant” mentioned is indeed the Messiah, and not a nation. Therefore, Isaiah 53 is a pretty clear prediction of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, despite claims to the contrary.

” The only place it says Mashiach is G-d is in chrstian imaginations.”


Also Isaiah 9:6, amongst other passages. But, if you read them, you might have to de-canonize them.

“First, as a Noachide, I am not commanded to do so.”


Exo_12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Sorry, but you are indeed obligated to keep the eternal statutes, and all the laws of the Jewish people if you wish to sojourn amongst them, despite what Rabbis might say about it. Of course, they don’t keep the law either, so...


37 posted on 07/11/2013 10:30:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“Now did you read this very carefully? Even in the wilderness the Israelites did not observe the sacrificial service every single day.”


I submitted too soon. I was actually referring to the Passover lamb. Most Jews just eat some other meat, and maybe might have a bone there or something, at the most, from a lamb, whom we hope, at least, was unblemished. I wasn’t referring to the daily sacrifice, though, there really isn’t a reason not to practice it either. The Temple being destroyed doesn’t change that obligation, since they were certainly sacrificing long before the time of the Temple.

“And that brings us to the current Exile, that of Rome, the longest of all. Let’s take another look at what the Torah has to say about this period. Please turn to Deuteronomy 28:15 and following which prophesies the current Exile (as the Exile of Bavel was prophesied in Leviticus 26).”


That is not an actual prophecy. It is a warning of punishment of what will happen if they disobey God.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

The actual Prophecy is in Daniel 9, which predicts a period of 70 weeks which concludes with the destruction of the Jewish Temple after the Messiah is “cut off.” This was accomplished in 70AD with the destruction of the Jewish Temple by Titus, on the same day and month the first temple was destroyed. Daniel also makes it clear that this is the conclusion of the Temple period, as the destruction of the Temple is tied with making “an end of sin, making reconciliation for iniquity, for anointing the most Holy.”

Since reconciliation is made by Messiah, who is the completion of what was only a shadow as seen in the Passover and in the daily sacrifices, we are quite alright in not keeping the laws that you don’t keep either. We are dead to the Law, and certainly the law ceases to be “forever” after one is dead!


38 posted on 07/11/2013 10:53:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Actually, I made an error! I thought you meant Deut 28:15 was the prophecy. I didn’t catch “and what comes after.” Starting from the 45th verse, it is indeed a pretty good description of the siege of Jerusalem.


39 posted on 07/11/2013 11:15:15 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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