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To: iseeit
Myself, as a person struggling to become a devout Catholic, cannot feel peace in my soul while holding the view that our Lords mercy is restricted solely for those who are Catholic. I believe that our God is much, much greater than that.

“Many are called but few are chosen” Matthew 22:14

I don't pretend to understand God's plan. I have difficulty understanding how a God who is love can create Hell for the eternal punishment of those He created but fell short. I'd have done it differently.

But I know …

“Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. (2 Tim. 2:11–12).
So I will endure.

"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22–23
Hoping to remain in his kindness.

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Rom. 2:6–8)
And doing good work.

And continue ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of Grace that is working in me.

208 posted on 04/24/2013 8:42:51 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive; All

“And doing good work.... knowing that it is God’s gift of Grace that is working in me.”


The whole lot of it is a contradiction in terms. A man doing “good work” of his own free-will, and “God’s gift of grace” being earned. It’s vanity of vanities, to think that you will stand before God by your own merits, your own work, your own self-conversion. Let’s work on Romans 2 first.

Rom 2:6-7 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Your reading, apparently, is that as a Roman Catholic you are going to stand in front of the judgment seat of God and be judged for your works, and, obviously, be vindicated, or at least stand a chance at being vindicated.

If one actually reads Romans though, the exact opposite is what Paul is demonstrating. In chapter 1, Paul shows how the Gentiles will perish “without the law,” as they have no excuse. In Chapter 2, Paul beings his assault on the Jewish nation, which live with the law, and yet commits the same sins as the gentiles. From the verses right below the one you quoted:

Rom 2:9-12 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (11) For there is no respect of persons with God. (12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The conclusion here is that they will ALL be judged by the law (the Jews), and that the Gentiles would also perish based on the condemnation of the law of God written on their hearts.

In Chapter 3, Paul confirms the utter depravity of all people:

Rom 3:10-20 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The last verse is the most significant. Whenever you harp on law keeping to save yourself, I shall write all over it the phrase “by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Paul’s argument in Romans is that the Law does not save, because no one can keep it. It is not the origin of sin, being good and perfect and holy, but it reveals the sin and depravity of man who constantly breaks the law of God. It cannot be emphasized enough that man is utterly depraved, and does not seek God or do the work of God without God working on Him. Even those who are redeemed already are not immune. Paul himself laments of the war in his body between his body which sins, and his mind which desires God:

Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If Paul himself is brought under such trouble as sin (and all Christians are in the like predicament), and yet if your reading is true, then all Christians have much to fear in God, because the sins of the flesh are real and “will be judged.” But Paul says that we are dead to the law, and are married to Christ, which therefore follows that we are free from the curse of the law which is damnation, and are bound to Christ which, though we produce fruit and follow the great commandments (Love God, Love your Neighbor, by which we fulfill the whole law), we “persevere” through faith and dependence on Him, as all men are commanded:

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It is by faith that we receive not our own righteousness, but the imputed righteousness of Christ who lived perfectly. How can you add to the righteousness of Christ? And if we wear Him, what have we to fear? If you notice in Revelation, it is only the damned in the second resurrection who are explicitly told they are “judged according to their works.” Those who rise to the first resurrection are happy from start to finish.

Furthermore, you ignored my other post, but let’s talk about being “chosen” and how we are chosen. According to the scripture, many are called, and few are chosen, not according to our own works, but by the grace and purpose of God before the foundation of the world:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

By “Grace” we need to understand that it cannot be earned in any way. Grace is, by definition, the unmerited favor of God to ordain you to salvation. The Romanists abuse the term terribly, because they imagine themselves earning a free-gift, or that they can lose grace, or fall back into grace, as if grace was the whim of man. Works cannot add to it, otherwise it is no more grace. It is either ALL grace, or it isn’t.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is by grace that God effectually calls all believers before the foundation of the world, who ordains us that we will be justified and produce fruit, and not because He foresaw that we would do good. It is the sovereign act of God, which belongs only to God, and cannot be gainsaid by man.

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You provide a scripture from Php 2:12, but look at the verse right beneath it:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The Apostle is clear that the good works we do do not come from ourselves (for we are depraved), but it is God who calls us, regenerates us, and justifies us, and “wills” in us to believe and to do good.


307 posted on 04/24/2013 7:37:46 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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