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“700 Club” Errs on Catholic Church and Hitler
http://www.catholicleague.org/ ^ | April 23, 2013 | Bill Donohue

Posted on 04/23/2013 9:37:23 AM PDT by NKP_Vet

In a segment titled “God and Hitler,” Gordon Robertson (son of Rev. Pat Robertson), hosted a discussion on the Catholic Church’s response to Hitler. Several errors of fact were made.

1) It is wrong to paint Hitler as a Catholic. Though he was baptized, he excommunicated himself, latae sententiae, when he sought, in his words, to “crush [the Catholic Church] like a toad.” He made good on his pledge by persecuting 8,000 priests, over 500 of whom were killed in concentration camps. He also sought to assassinate the pope.

2) The 1933 Nazi-Vatican Concordat was not a show of solidarity. As Rabbi David Dalin has shown, it was a protective measure designed to protect German Catholics from persecution. In fact, at least 34 letters of protest were sent from the Vatican to the Nazis between 1933 and 1937, culminating in a 1937 encyclical that condemned Nazi violations of the Concordat and its racial ideology. It was smuggled out of Italy and distributed on Palm Sunday to Catholics in Germany. Nothing like this happened in Protestant churches in Germany.

3) It is not true that Hitler met resistance from Protestants alone. There are 800,000 trees planted in Israel that represent the 800,000 Jews saved by the Catholic Church. None have been planted as a tribute to Protestants. During the war, the New York Times twice said the Church was “a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent”; Albert Einstein also singled out the Church during the war. After the war, Golda Meir praised the work of the Church, as did the ADL, the World Jewish Congress, and scores of other Jewish organizations.

4) It is factually wrong to say the Vatican archives have “never been seen.” Many scholars have had access. As for Pope Pius XII being “Hitler’s Pope,” it should be noted that John Cornwell, the ex-seminarian who originated this term, retracted it years ago. So why does “The 700 Club” continue to cite it?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; History; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: 700club; christianmedia; hitlerspope; sourcetitlenoturl
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1 posted on 04/23/2013 9:37:23 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet
Pope Pius XII saved 860,000 Jews during WW2.

His efforts completely dwarfed all others, including those of the Red Cross.

The foremost Jewish Scholar of the Holocaust at its height in Hungary, Jeno Levai, insisted some years ago that it was a "particularly regrettable irony that the one person in all of occupied Europe who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others."

The Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide concluded his careful review of Pius XII’s wartime activities with the following words: "The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."

He went on to add that this "figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined."

After recounting statements of appreciation from a variety of preeminent Jewish spokespersons, he noted. "No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews . . . .Several suggested in open letters that a Pope Pius XII forest of 860,000 trees be planted on the hills of Judea in order to fittingly honor the memory of the late Pontiff ("Three Popes and the Jews" pp. 214–215)."

Levai in his own book did not hesitate to argue that the attacks on the Pope’s wartime record are "demonstrably malicious and fabricated . . . . The archives of the Vatican of diocesan authorities of Ribbentrop’s foreign ministry, contain a whole series of protests—direct and indirect, diplomatic and public, secret and open. The nuncios and bishops of the Catholic Church intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope," he wrote.


The former chief rabbi of Rome during the German occupation, Emilio Zolli, concluded his firsthand account of wartime events Hungarian Jews and the Papacy: in the following manner: "Volumes could be written on the multiform works of Pius XII, and the countless priests, religious and laity who stood with him throughout the world during the war." "No hero," he said, "in all of history was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII in pursuing the works of true charity . . . and thus on behalf of all the suffering children of God."

Zolli was so moved by Pius XII’s work that he became a Catholic after the war and took the Pope’s name


Pinchas Lapide acknowledged in his book (Before the Dawn). that the Church "in an endless flood of sermons, allocutions, pastoral letters and encyclicals was a clear and unrelenting foe to all forms of racism at the time, and everyone knew it—Jews, Poles, Russians and most ominously the Nazi secret police." Their files mention recalcitrant Catholic clergy in this regard more than any other group.


The New York Times in its Christmas editorials of 1941 and 1942 praised Pius XII for his moral leadership as a "lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent" and for, among other things, assailing "the violent occupation of territory, and the exile and persecution of human beings, for no other reason than race."


Golda Meir, Israel’s representative to the United Nations, was the first of the delegates to react to the news of Pope Pius XII’s death. She sent an eloquent message: "We share in the grief of humanity at the passing away of His Holiness, Pope Pius XII. In a generation afflicted by wars and discords he upheld the highest ideals of peace and compassion. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."


Leonard Bernstein, on learning of Pope Pius XII’s death while conducting his orchestra in New York’s Carnegie Hall, tapped his baton for a moment of silence to pay tribute to the Pope who had saved the lives of so many people without distinction of race, nationality, or religion.


The great Jewish physicist, Albert Einstein, who himself barely escaped annihilation at Nazi hands, made the point well in 1944 when he said, "Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, but the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, but they, like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks. Then I looked to individual writers . . . . they too were mute. Only the Church," Einstein concluded, "stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. . . . I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration . . . . and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly."

Hope this is helpful.

2 posted on 04/23/2013 9:40:02 AM PDT by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Bump for later reference


3 posted on 04/23/2013 9:46:40 AM PDT by Slyfox (The Key to Marxism is Medicine ~ Vladimir Lenin is smiling from hell)
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To: NKP_Vet

The 700 Club gets an awful lot wrong these days. I think largely due to Pat Robertson’s advancing age and perhaps creeping dementia. I think his family really needs to sit him down for the retirement talk.


4 posted on 04/23/2013 9:51:06 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: NKP_Vet

My understanding is that Hitler received more resistance from Catholics than the fragmented Protestants. Hitler also saw the Catholics as more serious opponents than he did the fragmented Protestants.


5 posted on 04/23/2013 9:52:12 AM PDT by fso301
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“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. ....As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.”

bishop sheen


6 posted on 04/23/2013 9:52:46 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: NKP_Vet

The 700 Club must be using some Freepers as sources.


7 posted on 04/23/2013 9:53:13 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: NKP_Vet
He actually excommunicated himself far earlier, when he lived in Vienna before World War I and joined the anti-Catholic society Los von Rom.
8 posted on 04/23/2013 9:57:41 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: agere_contra

I have heard this mentioned before (though it did not get much press) that Pope Pius XII was an unsung hero of WW2.

Bookmarked for later reference


9 posted on 04/23/2013 10:02:20 AM PDT by NEWwoman (God Bless America)
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To: NEWwoman

Pope Pius will be a canonized saint one day for his leadership of the Church in the dark days of WW2. Liberals that hate the Catholic Church love to cite how friendly he was with Hitler and how he did nothing to help Jews from
the concentration camps. Nothing could be further from the truth.


10 posted on 04/23/2013 10:06:55 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

The NAZIS were big fans of Martin Luther. He was a big Jew hater.


11 posted on 04/23/2013 10:13:22 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: wideawake

In everything I’ve read about Hitler and WWII I’ve never seen any reference to him even attending a Catholic church, much less practicing the faith.


12 posted on 04/23/2013 10:24:08 AM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: NEWwoman

He absolutely was an unsung hero. He put practice before preaching. He was the real deal.


13 posted on 04/23/2013 10:27:38 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Jesus thrown everything off balance." - Flannery O'Connor)
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To: NKP_Vet

Read “Pius XII Greatness Dishonoured”, by Michael O’Carroll, C.S. Sp.


14 posted on 04/23/2013 10:38:05 AM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: NKP_Vet; Mrs. Don-o

I’m glad the truth is coming out.

And I note that the Catholic church is under attack for her firm stance on pro-life - rampant abortion another holocaust.

May Pope Francis carry on for such a times as this.

(Full disclosure - I’m a Protestant)


15 posted on 04/23/2013 10:38:49 AM PDT by NEWwoman (God Bless America)
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To: NKP_Vet
1) It is wrong to paint Hitler as a Catholic. Though he was baptized, he excommunicated himself, latae sententiae, when he sought, in his words, to “crush [the Catholic Church] like a toad.” He made good on his pledge by persecuting 8,000 priests, over 500 of whom were killed in concentration camps. He also sought to assassinate the pope.

2) The 1933 Nazi-Vatican Concordat was not a show of solidarity. As Rabbi David Dalin has shown, it was a protective measure designed to protect German Catholics from persecution. In fact, at least 34 letters of protest were sent from the Vatican to the Nazis between 1933 and 1937, culminating in a 1937 encyclical that condemned Nazi violations of the Concordat and its racial ideology. It was smuggled out of Italy and distributed on Palm Sunday to Catholics in Germany. Nothing like this happened in Protestant churches in Germany.

3) It is not true that Hitler met resistance from Protestants alone. There are 800,000 trees planted in Israel that represent the 800,000 Jews saved by the Catholic Church. None have been planted as a tribute to Protestants. During the war, the New York Times twice said the Church was “a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent”; Albert Einstein also singled out the Church during the war. After the war, Golda Meir praised the work of the Church, as did the ADL, the World Jewish Congress, and scores of other Jewish organizations.

Ping for later.

16 posted on 04/23/2013 10:47:28 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Alex Murphy

THE FORGOTTEN VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST. The persecution of Catholics.

Without belittling the unspeakable horrors suffered by Jews, we should not ignore the fact that millions of Catholics were also victims of the Holocaust, as were gypsies, homosexuals, and in much less scale, Orthodox and Protestants. Poland had the biggest Jewish population in Europe and was the only country where there was a mandatory death penalty for those hiding Jews. Many, who were caught sheltering Jews, were killed in a gruesome manner, such as being publicly burned as a warning to others.

Although not every Catholic was a victim of the Nazis, it is certain that all the Jews were victims of Hitler’s hatred. Hitler’s “Final Solution” was targeted to the total extermination of the Jewish race-an abhorrent and unforgivable crime against humanity.

We should keep in mind the prevailing situation of complete despair throughout Europe at the beginning of the forties. The Germans already occupied Poland, France, Belgium, Holland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Norway; and the invasion of the Soviet Union was going on while England was being bombed daily in preparation for the eventual invasion. The United States stayed out of the war until December 7, 1941, when the Japanese attacked the American naval base in Pearl Harbor. The neutral nations, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden and the Vatican, were the only temporarily remaining free territories. Without any military force, all the Pope had was his powerful moral pulpit to encounter the all powerful and victorious German troops. Although the Vatican was neutral, The Church and its flock were being brutally attacked and decimated in the Nazi’s occupied countries.

According to historian William J. O’Malley, S.J., “to the genocide of six millions Jews we have to add nine to ten millions Slavic victims (Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Yugoslavs) who were eliminated-not in war, not as saboteurs, not as guerrillas, but sorely because they were Slavic.” The Nazi’s genocide, based on race, should also include half a million gypsies who, just as the Slavs, were executed because they were not member of the superior race, the Aryans. The Nazis in Poland alone murdered more than 3 million Catholics together with over 3 million Jews. (13)

About 2,800 clergymen were interned between 1940 and 1945, at Dachau, the infamous Nazi concentration camp. Among them, 2,579 were Catholic clergymen, 109 Protestants, 30 orthodox and two Moslem clergymen. The Catholics came from 38 nations; 1,780 were Polish, 447 German and Austrian, 109 Czech and Slovaks, 50 Yugoslavs, 156 French, 63 Dutch. The auxiliary Polish Bishop of Wladislava died of typhus while imprisoned at Dachau. At least 1034 died in the camp, some victims of medical experimentation by the infamous Dr. Rascher. In 1940, 800 priests died in Buchenwald, 1,200 in 1942 and 3,000 in 1943. And that was just in Buchenwald.

As O’Malley, pointed out, “That figure, surprising as it might be, does not include the clergy or nuns who were shot, beheaded or tortured to death in squares and alleys and jails all over Europe…In France, in February 1944, the Gestapo had arrested 162 priests, of whom 123 were shot or decapitated before ever reaching any camp. According to the International Tribunal at Nuremburg, 780 priests died of exhaustion at Mauthausen and 300 at Sachsenhausen, and there were hundreds of other camps in the network. Nor does the total figure of 2,771 take into consideration that one-quarter to one-third of those shipped to any camps often arrived dead.” (14)

Polish Cardinal Stephan Wyszynski, in his prison memoirs, notes that he was the only member of his ordination class who escaped the concentration camps; seven died in Dachau; of the six who survived the concentrations camps, several soon died as the result of torture and medical experimentation. It is estimated that the Nazis imprisoned half of the Polish clergy.

The Pope not only had to answer to the pleas from the Jews, but also to those from his own flock. Quite an extraordinary burden to bear. In March 1942 a shattering letter from the Polish Archbishop Sapieha arrived to the Vatican: “Our condition is in truth most tragic, he wrote to the Pope, deprived of almost all human rights, delivered to the cruelty of men lacking for the most part any human sentiment, we live continuously under horrible terror in constant danger of losing everything, either by trying to escape or by deportation, or incarceration in the so-called concentration camps, from which few come out alive. In these camps thousands and thousands of our brothers are held, without any judicial trial, people wholly innocent. Among them there are many priests, secular and religious…to these things the typhus is now added spreading more and more daily.” (15)

Catholic martyrdom was rich in examples of courage.

Catholic martyrdom was rich in examples of courage. When Msgr. Andrew Szeptyckyi was consecrated as Archbishop of Lwow of the Ruthenians, he asked the Pope during the ceremony, an explicit vocation for martyrdom. With that idea he approached Himmler personally on behalf of the Jews; their fate rent his noble spirit. There were many Catholics such as Oskar Schindler and St. Maximilian Kolbe who in brotherly love risked and even offered their own lives in behalf of the Jews.

In occupied Poland, Arthur Greiser was in charge of the annihilation of the Catholic Church…

Arthur Greiser was in charge of the annihilation of the Catholic Church and the creation of a national German Church loyal to the Führer in Warthegau. The final goal was the complete Germanization of that Polish region, to which end Greiser worked without respite. Bishops were driven out, priests killed or imprisoned. Within a few years one third of the pre-war 2,000 priests were dead and 700 imprisoned; seminaries were closed, the Catholic press and voluntary associations suppressed. The Holy See found itself desperately fighting in two fronts, for the survival of the Jews and for the survival of his own flock. The Church in a beleaguered Poland was being bled to death by the two great scourges of humanity, the Nazis and Communists. In Poland three million Catholics went to their death along with three million Jews at the Nazi’s concentration camps in addition to the millions murdered by the Soviets.

It is documented that, according to Robert M.W. Kempner, former U.S. Deputy Chief of Counsel at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, among the measures scheduled to follow upon Hitler’s victory were the following: “every Catholic State must select its own Pope”…(and) “the Bishop of Muenster will go before the firing squad one day.” Every propaganda move by the Catholic Church against Hitler’s Reich would have been not only “provoking suicide”, but would have hastened the execution of still more Jews and Priests. These and similar threats appeared in the diary of Alfred Rosenberg, the nazi theoretician of racial purity, and in Hitler’s Table Talk.

Millions of Catholics were victims first of the Nazis and later of the Communists.

Most Catholics were anti-Nazi and anti-Communist. We should not forget “the fact that hundreds of thousands of anti-Nazis from communist occupied territories as Poland, the Baltic States and Bessarabia, were sent by Moscow to German concentration camps, while hundreds of thousands of anti-Stalinists refugees living in Nazis territories were sent by Berlin to the Soviet concentration camps” as part of the Stalin / Hitler’s diabolical pact. Shamefully, the Western democracies did the same after WWII; thousands of anti-Communists who fled the Soviet Union during the war were forcedly deported to the Soviet concentration camps, the dreadful gulags. Entire families opted for suicide rather than deportation.


17 posted on 04/23/2013 10:56:41 AM PDT by Dqban22
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To: wideawake

In 1937, Pius XI published the Encyclical “Mit Brennender Sorge,” stating that Catholics must never be anti-Semite.

On March 14, 1937, before it was fashionable to denounce the German Führer as a villain and long before the creation of the concentration camps and the gas chambers, Pius XI, ably seconded by his Secretary of State, wrote the Encyclical “Mit Brennender Sorge” meaning “with burning anxiety”. It dealt with the nazi threat to racial minorities and specifically the Jews addressing the Encyclical directly to the German people. The Encyclical exhorted that Catholics must never be anti-Semitic because “we are all Semites spiritually” and ought to hold the Jewish people in high regard accordingly. The Encyclical exposed to the world the III Reich’s persecution of the Catholic Church as well as the incompatibility between the principles of the National Socialism and those of the Catholic faith. The German government prohibited the entrance of the Encyclical to the country and it became necessary to smuggle it into Germany under the nose of the ruthless Gestapo. On Sunday March 21, The Encyclical was read from 12,000 Catholic pulpits across Germany. As a result, the Nazi’s campaign of innuendoes against The Church as well as the persecution of Catholics worsened.

The German Catholic hierarchy thanked Pope Pius XI for the letter, which strongly condemned both, racism and anti-Semitism. The Pope pointed to Cardinal Pacelli (later elected Pope Pius XII) saying that it was he who had been responsible for the Encyclical. It was the Secretary of State, who asked the German Cardinal Faulhaber to submit a draft text, which he amended carefully. Pacelli also bore the burden of its defense when the Encyclical was the subject of strong German diplomatic protests; he did so personally, not by delegation.


18 posted on 04/23/2013 11:01:59 AM PDT by Dqban22
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To: Carpe Cerevisi
The 700 Club must be using some Freepers as sources.

Yep, and I'm sure some Freepers will watch the 700 Club and use it as a reference on this subject in posts here.

One big circle . . .

19 posted on 04/23/2013 11:04:09 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (People are idiots.)
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To: fso301
My understanding is that Hitler received more resistance from Catholics than the fragmented Protestants.

___

Martin Niemoller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and their fellows would respectfully disagree. There was opposition from both Protestants and Catholics alike, with the Catholic Church standing in especially strong opposition to the regime's policy regarding euthanasia.

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum states the general position of both churches this way, and it's sadly not positive:

"The general tactic by the leadership of both Protestant and Catholic churches in Germany was caution with respect to protest and compromise with the Nazi state leadership where possible. There was criticism within both churches of Nazi racialized ideology and notions of "Aryanism," and movements emerged in both churches to defend church members who were considered "non-Aryan" under Nazi racial laws (e.g., Jews who had converted). Yet throughout this period there was virtually no public opposition to antisemitism or any readiness by church leaders to publicly oppose the regime on the issues of antisemitism and state-sanctioned violence against the Jews. There were individual Catholics and Protestants who spoke out on behalf of Jews, and small groups within both churches that became involved in rescue and resistance activities (for example, the White Rose and Herman Maas)."

"After 1945, the silence of the church leadership and the widespread complicity of "ordinary Christians" compelled leaders of both churches to address issues of guilt and complicity during the Holocaust—a process that continues internationally to this day."

20 posted on 04/23/2013 11:15:06 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Blather. Reince. Repeat.)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Sure am happy, this has become a way to bash Protestants merely because one source, the 700 Club, a group to which I never have watched, to link me to whatever they've stated, regardless of any proof.

From now on, I'd best be watching 700 Club so I know what I'm going to be linked to and blamed for as a possible source, as a Protestant.

21 posted on 04/23/2013 11:28:49 AM PDT by zerosix (Native Sunflower)
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To: zerosix

; )


22 posted on 04/23/2013 11:43:43 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (People are idiots.)
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Martin Niemoller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and their fellows would respectfully disagree.

Bonhoeffer yes but what what was Niemöller's position regarding the Nazis in 1932 and 1933?

If the Protestants formed a strong front against the Nazis, why was it necessary to form the Confessing Church?

Without getting into Bismarck's Kulturkampf, nationalist politics, patriotism, the aftermath of WWI, historic anti-Semitism, the völkisch movement and a fear of the Red Terror, the basic problems of the Church resisting Nazism was the deep split between Protestants and Catholics.

Hitler had a more difficult time with the Catholic Church because it is more monolithic and trans-national in leadership whereas Protestants are inherently fragmented and local in leadership. The Nazis could more easily remove, flip, or replace Protestant pastors than Catholic clergy. Additional problems were presented by the split between mainstream denominations and groups such as Jehovahs Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists.

An additional problem preventing a united front against Nazism was that neither Jew nor Christian recognized that to the neopagan Nazis, Christianity was seen as just a large Jewish sect.

23 posted on 04/23/2013 12:05:59 PM PDT by fso301
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To: wideawake
He actually excommunicated himself far earlier, when he lived in Vienna before World War I and joined the anti-Catholic society Los von Rom.

I agree that Hitler excommunicated himself but could you provide a reference showing Hitler to have been a member, or associate of Los von Rom?

24 posted on 04/23/2013 12:20:14 PM PDT by fso301
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To: massgopguy
The NAZIS were big fans of Martin Luther. He was a big Jew hater.

The Nazis were not fans of Luther, they just used him to advance their agenda which after the war would have been the complete elimination of Christianity within the Third Reich.

25 posted on 04/23/2013 12:26:15 PM PDT by fso301
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To: agere_contra; NKP_Vet
Pope Pius XII saved 860,000 Jews during WW2.

The Hitler's Pope monniker came straight from Moscow.

26 posted on 04/23/2013 12:27:42 PM PDT by fso301
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To: NEWwoman

Thank you for your good will and thank you for yhour prayers!


27 posted on 04/23/2013 1:05:56 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Jesus thrown everything off balance." - Flannery O'Connor)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

As a Catholic, I am happy to see that the truth about the persecution of religious people in Nazi Germany is finally becoming better known. Shame on the 700 Club for disemminating falsehoods about this time in Germany.

I am Catholic and I have always known about the persecution of the Catholic Church under Hitler. The fact is, the Catholic Church was persecuted under Otto von Bismarck as well by the imposition of the “May Laws” which terrorized the clergy in the 1870’s. The law was eventually overturned.

However, I digress. You are correct that for 65+ years the American press has ignored the terrible circumstances of ALL the CHRISTIAN churches under Nazism. It was untrue that the Lutherans did not resist. In fact, they put up a very good fight against the Nazi plan to replace the historic Lutheran Church with a “German Church”, filled with heretical pastors who were willing to toe the line and impose radical nationalism, anti-Semitism, and also willing to replace the crosses in the Lutheran churches with a picture of “Der Fuehrer”.

Recently I read a book about the terrible circumstances faithful Lutherans had when the Nazis came after them and indoctrinated their children with the toxic Nazi philosophy. The book is named, “Day of No Return”, by Kressmann Taylor. It is well worth reading. I highly recommend it. Martin Niemoeller’s name is prominent in the story.


28 posted on 04/23/2013 1:08:50 PM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: fso301
Hitler was influenced by Georg Schönerer, a founder of the Los von Rom movement. I'm not sure it was something you could actually sign up and take out a membership card in or that Hitler joined Schönerer's political party, but certainly Hitler took a lot from Schönerer, though he criticized the latter for going after too many targets and being too unfocused in his agitation.
29 posted on 04/23/2013 1:23:28 PM PDT by x
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To: fso301
He proudly mentions it in Mein Kampf. He avows his admiration for von Schoenerer and especially for Karl Lueger.
30 posted on 04/23/2013 1:34:55 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

Why do want to sully this thread with FACTS? Don’t you know that some are easily distracted when they are forced to look away from the pretty, sparkly thingys Rome shines in their faces?....


31 posted on 04/23/2013 1:41:32 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
Your comment is bizarre and incomprehensible.

The communists, the national socialists, and certain hate-filled anti-Catholic protestants certainly do shine "pretty, sparkly thingys" in peoples' faces ... when honest folk speak the truth, however, those "pretty, sparkly thingys" are revealed to be distortions, fabrications and half truths.

32 posted on 04/23/2013 1:45:58 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Gumdrop; Dqban22; fso301; Colonel_Flagg
It was untrue that the Lutherans did not resist. In fact, they put up a very good fight against the Nazi plan to replace the historic Lutheran Church with a “German Church”, filled with heretical pastors who were willing to toe the line and impose radical nationalism, anti-Semitism, and also willing to replace the crosses in the Lutheran churches with a picture of “Der Fuehrer”.

Recently I read a book about the terrible circumstances faithful Lutherans had when the Nazis came after them and indoctrinated their children with the toxic Nazi philosophy. The book is named, “Day of No Return”, by Kressmann Taylor. It is well worth reading. I highly recommend it. Martin Niemoeller’s name is prominent in the story.

The Catholic Church didn't object to Hitler's Germany until 1938-39 at the earliest, as it viewed Bolshevism as a greater threat. As late as 1941, the Pope described Hitler's offensive against Russian Bolshevism as "high-minded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture."

But I digress - I'm interrupting a perfectly good Protestant-bashing thread.

33 posted on 04/23/2013 1:51:06 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Alex Murphy
You're dead wrong. At least do a little research before completely discrediting yourself. Really ... you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Even that anti-Catholic dingbat John Cornwall doesn't debunks your falsehoods.

And don't defend the communists, either.

"it viewed Bolshevism as a greater threat

And rightly so. Communism inspired a vast empire of evil that began long before Hitler hatched his mad schemes, and continued long after Hitler had been defeated, destroyed, and discredited. National Socialism's death toll, bad as it was, pales in comparison to that of Internationalist Communism. Indeed, Stalin had murdered millions in Ukraine before anybody outside of a certain beer-hall had ever even heard of Adolph Hitler. Meanwhile, National Socialism is rightly almost universally reviled ... yet Communism, its twin in demonic evil, remains quite popular in some parts of the world.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good anti-Catholic rant.

34 posted on 04/23/2013 2:08:36 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: fso301
Bonhoeffer yes but what what was Niemöller's position regarding the Nazis in 1932 and 1933?

Niemoller did not oppose Hitler's accession to power, but I expect you knew that. However, eight years in Sachsenhausen and Dachau might indicate that he paid for that sin of commission, and his instigation of what became known as the Stuttgarter Schuldbekenntnis after the war indicated his true conversion.

The point of my post was not to compare Catholic to Protestant per se, but was, however, to note that German Protestants did play an active role against Hitler and some did so in high-profile ways.

"Through us infinite wrong was brought over many peoples and countries. That which we often testified to in our communities, we express now in the name of the whole church: We did fight for long years in the name of Jesus Christ against the mentality that found its awful expression in the National Socialist regime of violence; but we accuse ourselves for not standing to our beliefs more courageously, for not praying more faithfully, for not believing more joyously, and for not loving more ardently." -- Stuttgart Declaration of Guilt, 1945

And this from a man who spent eight years in concentration camps.

35 posted on 04/23/2013 2:13:29 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Blather. Reince. Repeat.)
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To: x
Hitler was influenced by Georg Schönerer, a founder of the Los von Rom movement. I'm not sure it was something you could actually sign up and take out a membership card in or that Hitler joined Schönerer's political party, but certainly Hitler took a lot from Schönerer, though he criticized the latter for going after too many targets and being too unfocused in his agitation.

Los von Rom was a movement I regarded as a parallel to Bismarck's Kulturkampf. By the time Hitler was a teenager, both movements were pretty much spent.

36 posted on 04/23/2013 2:22:32 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Alex Murphy
The Catholic Church didn't object to Hitler's Germany until 1938-39

Wrong. Papal encyclical Mit brennender Sorge was read aloud from the pulpit across Germany and Austria in March 1937.

But I digress - I'm interrupting a perfectly good Protestant-bashing thread.

You are being overly sensitive and missing the point. Be it the atheist communists or neopagan Nazis, divisions within Judeo-Christian denominations were exploited by the Bolsheviks and Nazis to divide, conquor and destroy Judeo-Christianity.

37 posted on 04/23/2013 2:29:58 PM PDT by fso301
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To: wideawake
He proudly mentions it in Mein Kampf. He avows his admiration for von Schoenerer and especially for Karl Lueger.

Yes but my original question was regarding a statement that Hitler belonged to Los von Rom, a movement that had largely spent itself by the time Hitler was a teenager.

38 posted on 04/23/2013 2:33:15 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
Yes but my original question was regarding a statement that Hitler belonged to Los von Rom, a movement that had largely spent itself by the time Hitler was a teenager.

The movement was quite alive when he came to Vienna.

He came from the movement's cradle, Linz.

He was a vocal supporter of its most successful political avatar, Karl Lueger.

He was an admirer of the movement's house philosopher Georg von Schoenerer.

What else do we need to know?

He was a supporter of Los von Rom.

39 posted on 04/23/2013 2:44:02 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: agere_contra

I lost all my links in a crash years ago but American Jews sent money to the Vatican during the war because they knew it would be used to rescue Jews.


40 posted on 04/23/2013 2:51:36 PM PDT by tiki
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Niemoller did not oppose Hitler's accession to power, but I expect you knew that. However, eight years in Sachsenhausen and Dachau might indicate that he paid for that sin of commission, and his instigation of what became known as the Stuttgarter Schuldbekenntnis after the war indicated his true conversion.

For their collective disunity in the face of evil, Martin Niemöller along with all other believers in lands occupied by the 3rd Reich were thrown into Satan's sieve to see who was wheat and who was chaff.

The German electorate in 1932 and 1933 was deeply divided. Practicing Catholics wouldn't vote for a Protestant candidate and Practicing Protestants wouldn't vote for a Catholic candidate. Because of their long history of mistreatment, Jews wouldn't vote for either. The end result was Hitler.

We got a glimpse of that here on FR in the runup to the 2012 presidential election with posters making "principled" stands to not vote for a Mormon.

41 posted on 04/23/2013 3:04:56 PM PDT by fso301
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To: wideawake
He was a supporter of Los von Rom

I never said he wasn't. My understanding is the movement peaked sometime around 1905. Hitler would have been about 16. I don't doubt that anything offering potential to sever ties held by Austrian Catholics to Rome would have been unattractive to Hitler, the German nationalist.

42 posted on 04/23/2013 3:16:42 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
The German electorate in 1932 and 1933 was deeply divided. Practicing Catholics wouldn't vote for a Protestant candidate and Practicing Protestants wouldn't vote for a Catholic candidate. Because of their long history of mistreatment, Jews wouldn't vote for either. The end result was Hitler.

Paul von Hindenburg, who defeated Hitler twice in the 1932 German Presidential election, was Lutheran. Perhaps it is fair to assume, since German Protestants outnumbered German Catholics by about two to one at that time, that your postulation is correct.

However, I'll need some convincing that religious differences among the German electorate led to Hindenburg appointing Hitler as Chancellor of Germany. As you know, Hitler never actually won a free election while standing personally as a candidate, and even at the time of his accession to power the Nazis were the largest party in the Reichstag but not an outright majority.

But yes, the Stuttgart declaration is an argument that Niemoller accepted personal spiritual responsibility for his past actions. Wheat and chaff separated but at a frightful cost.

43 posted on 04/23/2013 4:53:29 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Blather. Reince. Repeat.)
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Paul von Hindenburg, who defeated Hitler twice in the 1932 German Presidential election, was Lutheran.

I'm uncertain as to what evidence there is that Hindenburg was anything other than a cultural Lutheran. Never-the-less, the Catholic Center Party did support Hindenburg.

Perhaps it is fair to assume, since German Protestants outnumbered German Catholics by about two to one at that time, that your postulation is correct.

However, I'll need some convincing that religious differences among the German electorate led to Hindenburg appointing Hitler as Chancellor of Germany. As you know, Hitler never actually won a free election while standing personally as a candidate, and even at the time of his accession to power the Nazis were the largest party in the Reichstag but not an outright majority.

I can't cite any facts. I based my statement on an understanding of the Reformation era chasm that separates Catholics from Protestants. Some from either side will not have anything to do with the other side.

When we look at the German election of 1933, the neopagan Nazis got 43.9 percent of the vote and the atheist Communists got 12.3 percent. That means 56.2 percent of German voters either could not recognize, voted with eyes wide open, or did not care that they were voting an anti-Christian ticket. The German people officially de-Christianized in 1933.

Meanwhile, The Catholic Center Party got 11.25 percent, Social Democrats got 18.3 percent with the remainder scattered across another ten or so parties.

44 posted on 04/23/2013 5:36:15 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
I based my statement on an understanding of the Reformation era chasm that separates Catholics from Protestants. Some from either side will not have anything to do with the other side.

Still true today. The overriding point is that Catholic and Protestant alike left much to be desired in terms of Christian opposition to Hitler, while Catholic and Protestant alike can claim legitimate heroes in that selfsame opposition.

45 posted on 04/23/2013 6:27:54 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Blather. Reince. Repeat.)
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To: fso301
The Nazis were not fans of Luther, they just used him to advance their agenda which after the war would have been the complete elimination of Christianity within the Third Reich.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. That was it exactly.
46 posted on 04/23/2013 7:12:39 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: NKP_Vet; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; ...
1) It is wrong to paint Hitler as a Catholic. Though he was baptized, he excommunicated himself, latae sententiae, when he sought, in his words, to “crush [the Catholic Church] like a toad.”

That argument simply makes it worse. As with liberal RCs today, it is how Rome acts that interprets her words, and treating them as members in life and in death, such as Teddy K., interprets canon law though that that is supposed to preclude such "notorious sinners" from being given ecclesiastical funerals, which even Chavez was given. And please spare the unsubstantiated excuse, "he must have repented."

If Hitler was to be considered excommunicated, it should have been manifestly done, and all Catholics forbidden to have fellowship with him, (1Cor. 5:11-13) like as Paul named names of those who were handed over to the devil due to their sins. (1Tim. 2:10)

47 posted on 04/23/2013 7:29:30 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: fso301
My understanding is that Hitler received more resistance from Catholics than the fragmented Protestants. Hitler also saw the Catholics as more serious opponents than he did the fragmented Protestants.

It appears you're forgetting about fascist, almost entirely Catholic Italy, an Axis power, allied with Hitler.

48 posted on 04/23/2013 7:37:58 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
It appears you're forgetting about fascist, almost entirely Catholic Italy, an Axis power, allied with Hitler.

No I'm not. Big difference between cultural Catholics and practicing Catholics just as there's a big difference between cultural Protestants and practicing Protestants. Furthermore, the Catholics are headquartered out of Vatican City which is sovereign territory.

49 posted on 04/23/2013 8:04:08 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

I refer to almost entirely Catholic, fascist Italy, an Axis power, allied with Hitler.

Are you seriously claiming that every Catholic who supported the fascist regime of Mussolini, a Catholic, was somehow not really Catholic?

How many Jews were there in Italy at that time, and how were they treated? Protestants weren’t even treated especially well, what few there were. I know Waldensians didn’t get full religious rights in Italy until 1984.


50 posted on 04/23/2013 8:10:29 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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