Pope Francis: a man of joy and humility, or harsh and unbending? (baffled Guardian UK asks)

The Guardian (UK) ^ | Friday 15 March 2013 | Sam Jones, Uki Goni and Jonathan Watts

[Cronos]

it was never preached, demonstrated and voluntarily adopted.

Not completely true. your statement is true in the main, but in Kerala and in Indonesia/Malaysia it spread by preaching and voluntary adoption.

[BlueDragon]

And also note that it does not say that they worship the same God as us. A fine point, cutting short of saying they worship the same God as us.

I noticed that myself. Yet at the same time, as previously linked to by scvw, a mention by one Michelle Arnold at Catholic Answers To Explain and Defend The Faith

Full Question

Pope Benedict XVI has stated that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do. Is this just his private opinion?

Answer

No. The Second Vatican Council taught that Muslims worship the one true God:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. (Nostra Aetate 3)

bold highlighting added

The recent papal comments, and along with the above, suggest that the head honchos of the RCC are saying they consider that Muslims (at least some of them?) do worship the same God. (or maybe they are points for good intentions, I dunno...)

As far as I do know, they get Jesus all wrong, saying all sorts of things about Him, not understanding in the slightest...

Coming to mind as I write that last...is Jesus having said "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:32

He can forgive Muslims(too) for speaking ill of Him, or not getting details concerning Himself straight. We must do the same.

But I remember too, scenes like this, which tell the tale of what some of their nations and cultures can be like...what is normal enough, what sort of mindset is exhibited, showing a significant portion of them to be among the foulest of men. What else could be expected? Without Christ as Light of the world, bringing light to even the interior recesses of the human soul, what can be the result, but darkness? They may make big noises about the immorality of the West (not entirely unfounded complaint), but what Islam produces in civilizations where it holds sway, isn't as "godly" & glorious as it's cracked up to be. There can be struggle there, for basic decency.

You're probably aware of this sort of thing;

http://observers.france24.com/content/20130211-witness-sexual-assault-tahrir-square-mob

Guys like the denistry student, Kandily are fighting an uphill battle. If he is still alive(?).

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/tahir-square-tales-egypt/2013/mar/2/attacks-women-demonstrators-tahrir-square/

http://uncut.indexoncensorship.org/2013/02/the-battle-to-keep-women-in-tahrir-square/

[BlueDragon]

Agreed. What you said.

How to deal with the monster, is the question. It's holding a lot of people hostage...

[BlueDragon]

"... it was never preached, demonstrated and voluntarily adopted"

I think Cronos nailed us, there. I have to say it, for I had just agreed with you, which would leave us both be a little bit wrong, for the operative word "never" goes too far.

[Cronos]

What would be interesting is to study WHY?

It holds true for Christianity as well: Christianity spread well among jaded pagans like in Rome and Greece (Epicureanism was spreading in the 2nd century) and spread well in Syria, Iran, into the Turkic lands (and I mean the original Turkic lands which are now Uighuristan), but did not make much headway in India

In India initially it was in Kerala, a place that had contact with not only Rome but with Sumeria etc from at least 2000 BC and which had a Jewish community at least from 500 BC (to whom St. Thomas went)

Christianity never spread much beyond a community. Was it only spread to Jews who converted to Christianity?

Yet later on Islam too spread in Kerala (to a lower extent) brought by traders from Yemen

And Southern India was the conduit for religious transfers to South-East Asia. From Tamil Nadu, first hinduism, then Buddhism, then Islam was transmitted to Indonesia and Malaysia.

What is the attraction of Islam? I don't get it

[thecodont]

What is the attraction of Islam? I don't get it

Take away polygamy and see what happens.

[Cronos]

well, Michelle is incorrect. The wording in the Catechism, while trying to be very diplomatic, lends itself to such errors

however, the facts are that Islam started off as an offshoot of one heresy -- Arianism, mixed with Judaic ideas and pre-Islamic arabic religion and bedouin nationalism

Taking it logically, it is a very smart plan to unite people to create an empire and it still works -- people in Pakistan and Indonesia like to believe they are Arabs and Arabs are the true "master Race" -- why truly speaking even Egyptians and Syrians are not "Arabs" -- only the Nejdi Bedos are really arabs

[Cronos]

I believe that’s simplistic. There are moslems I know who are married to only one woman

[BlueDragon]

well, Michelle is incorrect.

Precisely how? She was pointing towards a statement made at the second vatican council. Did she misquote anything?

But nice attempt to sweep it under the rug...
The RC "church" has said Muslims "worship the same God" and have re-iterated and confirmed such statement, more than once.

They may be correct in that, too, to some extent, with possibly some qualifiers needing be attached...but the fact of the matter is the statements have been made without much in the way of such attachments.

When there was both oblique and more direct mention of attachements elsewhere, there was a reaction based upon one portion of Ratzinger's comments in particular, which are much at the heart of the differences between Islam at it's a worst, and Christianity (at it's best?).

Contemporary commentary from http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/reconstruction-of-a-global-crisis-how-the-pope-angered-the-muslim-world-a-450456.html

The wording in the Catechism, while trying to be very diplomatic, lends itself to such errors

Such errors as what again, precisely? I missed the "such". But then again, the comments were not derived from the Catechism, but from popes and councils.

If they were preaching out of the catechism, did they reference "the Catechism" clearly enough for a listener to catch a mention of it, and know that it would have direct bearing upon the statements in question here, thus be warned they should hire a canon lawyer to sort out what it was they just heard?

So what now...are you "taking this opportunity, to revise and extend their remarks", as an American politician might do in light of controversial statements he himself made?

Are you the Vatican councils, or one of the popes who have made the friendly-sounding "they worship the same god" sort of statements? If not, then you are at the least, still telling us what they said, didn't actually mean what it sounded like...or...the Vatican council and more than one pope were making possibly polite, but misleadingly deceptive statements(?).

Or is this another of those instances where, even though popes and councils can be seen or heard to have said certain things, if those in some way contradict (or can be seen to contradict) what one prefers to bear in mind from amidst the "catechism", then the words are considered to not have been spoken by "the church". Which would seem to leave the catechism and what one can know of it, as being properly "the church" and not the people in it, nor the leadership either, for anybody deviating (or seen or thought by others to be deviating) from "catechism" ...is just another clown...?

The fuzzy infallibles stike again. They've been racking up quite a score, if one listens to some of the scorekeepers, that is...

however, the facts are that Islam started off as an offshoot of one heresy -- Arianism, mixed with Judaic ideas and pre-Islamic arabic religion and bedouin nationalism

Now you go towards the differences, in trying to "prove" the Vatican and popes have not said Islam "worships the same God"???

Ok, let's drag the discussion of the "statements" off into the bushes, since we are still uncomfortable with seeing this "creature" so strange to our eyes, being given a place of honor among the rest of God's menagerie...
...so giving a whack at past Arians is only fitting (even if turns out they are not exactly guilty of being precisely the "start off" point for Mohammed's own religious syncretisms, but more simply just picked up and incorporated, crammed in sideways along the way, relying as much upon Judaic objections to Christ being the Messiah, and Arabic tribal supremacy outlook, more fundamentally) for those who have the ongoing fantasy that the RCC be religious perfection personified, with no error past or present in it's "teachings" or some certain subset of documents, however defined.

Perhaps you might be better off sending your notes to the new pope? He could crank up the worldwide hunt for heritics, maybe put a bounty on their heads, or give permission to nuke 'em all, and let God sort 'em out.

I'd be tempted to just go ahead and nuke 'em till they glow myself...if I didn't find myself in such a dry desert, far from water, whenever I'm tempted towards taking that shortcut.

[Cronos]

The Church has not said "the same God" -- it has said "together they worship the one merciful god" -- remaining mum on whether that is the same god (as Moslems believe we do) or not (as we know they do).

I agree this is diplomatic sleight of hand and should be said clearly "they don't, but they believe they do", but as it is, the statements in no way affirm they do, (or don't for that matter) worship the same god.

[BlueDragon]

Actually, it was the new pope (not that I have anything against him) whom said ""together they worship the one merciful god" in the below paragraph;

I greet and thank cordially all of you, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; firstly the Muslims, who worship the one living and merciful God, and call upon Him in prayer. I really appreciate your presence, and in it I see a tangible sign of the wish to grow in recipricol trust and in cooperation for the common good of humanity.

"...the statements in no way affirm they do, (or don't for that matter) worship the same god."

In no way affirms??? How can you say that? What OTHER "one living and merciful God" is there?