In the Religion forum, on a thread titled My Train Wreck Conversion..., I despised Christians. Then I somehow became one. , jongaltsr wrote:
I accepted Jesus as a matter of fact when I was a child. As I grew up to many things made me rethink his existence. To many facts are missing,, undocumented, and lacking and form of proof.
If you're referring to Jesus' mention in every December issue of Newsweek "Who was the real Jesus?" and suchlike, you must first understand the nature of historical biography in the era of 2,000 years ago.
They didn't have typewriters, and weren't on contract to fill out a 300-page book, as biographies are written today. Read any of the biographies that existed at that time: None of the historical figures that were written about included much more than a brief mention of their childhoods. It was not considered relevant to who they were.
NOT one document was EVER survived or even mentioned where as enough writings of everyone else of any importance has survived. Jesus was not even mentioned by anyone with the exception of Paul and the Disciples, and THAT only occurred over two Decades after his was supposedly crucified.
Josephus? Ever heard of Josephus, the Jewish historian who wrote history for the Romans?
As to the historical veracity of the accounts, they seem correct. They have their political milieu correct, the right people doing the right historical things at the right time. The culture and tradition of Jewish life was captured in exacting detail--a non-Jew wouldn't have finessed it so correctly. So...the accounts DO seem to have been written down or at least dictated by Jews who themselves were there, in that location, at that time.
As to Paul...he was considered BY THE DISCIPLES THEMSELVES to be a disciple. He convinced them, and that will be good enough for me.
As an aside, are you aware that (IIRC the order) Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle...and that Socrates didn't leave anything written behind?
Oops.
I mean, if you're going to apply your own standard of historical validation, are you not now compelled to disbelieve in the existence of Socrates? (Mr. Hemlock Drinkin', "I'm lookin' for an honest man as I carry this lantern in broad daylight" kinda guy.)
It was Plato and Aristotle that wrote about this mythical Socrates that, according to you, we know could not have existed.
Oh, by the way, his students Plato and Aristotle only left behind FOUR (4) manuscripts attesting to his existence. Only four.
And yet, historians don't question whether he ever existed.
This is hypocrisy when we have 5,200+ manuscripts detailing Christ. Oh, and they were written about as long after the fact as Socrates' vicarious writings were, too. (Just something to consider.) Shows you how biased the discipline of history has become, eh?
Even Herod’s records of crucifixions make no mention of Christ or anyone but criminals, political enemies, captured soldiers but no religious profits.
Prophets [sic].
The Jewish scholars certainly believed he existed. They still do, today--they just don't accept him. But they don't discount that he existed.
The Roman historian Josephus, as I'd mentioned, seemed to have heard of him. 'nuff said.
Nor is there any mention anywhere that Jesus EVER wrote - period. It is also noted that NONE of his disciples were ever capable of writing. No scribes were ever mentioned which many illiterate (most were so).
Matthew was a tax collector. Why would a tax collector be illiterate, in your view? Wouldn't that make the process a bit more difficult and prone to dispute?! Wouldn't a TAX COLLECTOR have to write down the person's name, and amount, and date paid? Oh, and province, and where born, where living?
Only Paul wrote but 1. he was not a disciple, 2. He was a Roman Citizen and well educated in Greek and other languages. His writings are prolific.
Incorrect. Paul was a disciple. Paul was HIGHLY educated--in Phillippians, he used polysyndeton and chiasm. I took three years of Spanish and cannot very easily do any of that in Spanish, and yet Paul did it in a language that was not his native Hebrew--he did it in Koine Greek! (Why don't YOU try that?) ;)
I have become closer to the fact that there is definitely a God. I see it not only in everything around me but also in the actual evolution of mankind and every creature on this planet.
We're in agreement. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
Look, I think you're an okay guy, it's just that you need to enroll in a serious Bible study at the college level, and take some Koine Greek. Like I did, back when I was sounding a lot like you. ;)
Jesus may have existed. I can’t say - but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.
Please think of it this way: There's no question he existed. The Hebrew scholars to this day aren't arguing against THAT, and they carry forth the arguments made by their forefathers.
Add to that the writings of Josephus, who noted the events in that province at that time.
Add to that the fact that the apostles scattered, reaching the entire Mediterranean world at great personal sacrifice to themselves, and over many years--the remainder of their lifetimes! How many people do THAT, if they haven't experienced some event they feel compelled to share? I'll answer that:
Look at other religions...I'll take Islam (although, pardon me, I COULD also have chosen Mormonism on this account): The apostles of Islam did the two common things men do when they're part of a false religion: (1) they use their apostleship to travel and gain access to women for sex, and (2) they use their apostleship to gain access to wealth.
N.B.: Christ's apostles...did neither.
...and that's how you can tell. Look at their actions, for that's how you will know them. Christ's apostles gained nothing but death at the hands of the militant Klingon, uh, Roman Empire. (I said that to draw a more accurate mental picture in your mind of the militocracy that Rome was.)
That they were going to be executed was not a surprise to them. They knew they would be. Bone up on your history, and you'll see that some of them were pretty well "warned off" by the authorities several times before they were cashiered. They chose to ignore the warnings.
Now, WHY would they do that? Pursue something arduous, risky, gets no "p*ssy" (to put it crudely in the colloquial), gains no wealth, takes you far from home and family, puts you amidst strange heathen peoples with their strange barbarian tongues--especially when you're a good, well-educated Jewish young man who's always been taught to more or less distance yourself from the heathen?
Must've been SOME compelling reason. Dontcha think?
As a final thought, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel have pointed out that Jesus left no room in our minds that he could be anything other than the Son of God, a delusional madman, or a liar. (IIRC, someone help me with that line of argument, it's really facinating when you consider it.)
Always HTH on this issue!
Sauron
I was going answer with a lot of what you have said but you have done a far better job than I could have thank-you and well done.
Mel
So if he was merely a character who was made up in order to expound philosophical doctrine, it really makes no difference. The doctrine itself can still stand or fall on its own merits.
On the other hand, if it were claimed by Plato that Socrates was born of a virgin, performed many miracles, and survived the grave, we would all rightly demand far more proof, or more likely reject the account out of hand as a fiction.
In the end, all the arguments you make rest upon the historical accuracy of the New Testament, and very little else. You are of course entitled to accept that, and I respect your decision to do so.
But for me, I find that C.S. Lewis' "trilemma" (later expanded on - poorly - by Lee Strobel, whom I doubt was ever an atheist) fails to consider a fourth option. Jesus - Liar, Lord, Lunatic, or Incorrectly Reported.
I would like to put this statement by the OP:
but his teachings (or whoever originated the concepts attributed to him), definitely were extremely important to mankind.
along with your comment below together:
As a final thought, C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel have pointed out that Jesus left no room in our minds that he could be anything other than the Son of God, a delusional madman, or a liar.
Bear with me please, as it will take a while to get to the point I'd like to make.
Does anyone doubt that the teachings of Christ were a roadmap for a way for us to live together? He distilled all of the law into a very simple statement of less than 50 words as translated into English
Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
It has struck me for quite some time that this is an extraordinary truth.There is so much implied here, that I can't really do it any kind of justice in the kind of space and time I have for it right now (I think someone more talented and gifted with words than I could extract a book from the above few sentances). However, let me take it apart briefly.
First, "Love the Lord your God". There are many things implied within this. A man at peace with himself will love his creator. He will recognise his limitations in comparison to same. He will see the love God has for him and cherish it. If you love Him with all your heart, you love Him deeply, from the core of your being. While today we don't think of the heart as an organ being a 'feeling' part of our body for thousands of years men have recognised that it is an essential part of your being. Destroy a man's heart and he will not live. I believe this is one reason that since ancient times we have considered the heart to be the seat of your soul, and from whence it is that love itself springs.
Loving the Lord with your soul means implies loving with the metaphysical part of you, that which is indestructable and immortal. I believe that the 'soul' is that part of you that embodies the unconscious part of your being, that which dreams. I suspect it is where conscience comes from, if it is not a gift of the Spirit. Again, He is saying to feel the love for your maker from the deepest part of your psyche.
Loving the Lord with your Mind includes all those things that we normally think of as our mind, and probably more. We should understand that God is with us, and loves us (why else would He have given us chocolate, coffee, and beer?), and wants us to be happy in him. If you fully understand, and conciously think about all he has done for us and given to us, how can you help not to love him?
Now we get to what I consder to be the really amazing part. "Love your neighbor as yourself". Take all of that love and understanding that I mentioned before, and now apply it to your neighbor. Once you've done this, can you steal from him? Can you assault him? Can you covet his goods or wife? Could you stand to see him or his children to be hungry or in pain? Can you want anything for him but happiness and peace? I mean, if you just think about that for just a moment, and apply that to the world at large, the implications are astounding. Can you go to war with a neighbor that you love with your heart, soul, and mind? This planet would be a paradise of the highest order if we just listened to those five words.
Let's take the last half of that phrase. "as yourself". From a gramatical standpoint the operative phrasing would be "love yourself". Look around you today. How many destructive behaviors do you see in the world because people don't truely love themselves. In my humble opinion suicide is the ultimate form of self-hate, though others are much more common. What are drug abuse, depression, resentment, envy, obesity, and many other common vices we see all around us but manifestations of a lack of love for one's own self?
Put it together. Loving God, allows you to understand the love He has for you. How can you not love something (yourself) that He loves enough to have paid the ultimate price for? If we had the love of our neighbors, we would also see the worth of ourselves.
It's amazing how it all fits together.
So here we have it. In less than 50 english words, Jesus provided us with a path to paradise and happiness on earth for those who would think about, and consider His words.
Does this sound like the rantings of a lunatic? The manipulations of a liar? Putting aside the things He did, with multitudes of witnesses around, which would tend to argue against the 'lunatic' question, do His words strike you as the words of a liar? What would He have gain from them?
That's all I have for the moment. Thanks for haning the hook that allowed me to talk for a while. One other brif note I'd make is that Christianity is not an easy walk. It is hard to love your enemies. It is hard to master your desires. It can be hard to see the good in life. I often see non-christians write about the hypocrasy of Christians. My response to that is a simple "DUH!" The bar is set very high, and it take a lot of faith to strive to make the mark especially when you know that you will mostly fall short, especially with the temptations around us in today's society. Jesus said that to merely lust after another woman is to commit adultry, and to be angry with your neighbor is to kill. Yes. it's a high bar and I know for a fact that I am woefully short of it far too much of the time. but the goal and desire to reach it will make my small patch of ground a better place for it.
Thanks