“how else would Catholics agree to things ... (like) torturing and killing merely theological dissidents, if it were not because Rome has usurped the supernaturally established Scriptures as the supreme authority?”
Who decided which Scriptures were supernatural? Rome through a Council guided by the Holy Spirit. There were 300 or 400 books floating around. It was the Church guided by the Holy Spirit who threw out 300 or so books as merely human, though many of them were good as lesser spiritual reading. Rome decided upon the 72 books.(It’s not a coincidence that Jesus sent out 72 disciples.) How did Rome usurp that which She, guided by the Holy Spirit, decided upon in the first place? Also, the torturing and killing was a two way street. Catholics believe that the Pope is infallible when teaching on faith and morals. There are other decisions the Popes have made which the Church does not claim are infallible.
“And when did Rome provide an infallible, indisputable canon of Scripture?”
At a council where guided by the Holy Spirit, the Bishops and Cardinals whose authority can be traced directly to the Apostles agreed upon these books. You wouldn’t even have a Bible to read if not for this Council. Peter was the Prince of the Apostles. His name is always listed first in any list of the Apostles because he is the Rock, the Pope. Why did John wait at the entrance of the tomb for Peter to go in when he beat him there? Because Peter was and is the chief Shepherd. If they were equals, John would have just went in, but he didn’t. When Christians had a major divisive dispute around the year 100, they didn’t ask the final living Apostle John to settle the dispute. They didn’t search the Scriptures to settle the dispute. They appealed to Pope Clement in Rome and he ruled on and settled the dispute.
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it (Matthew 16).” Jesus founded one visible Church. Not 40,000 and counting. So-called spiritual unity is not enough. There must be a visible, recognizable Final authority.
“Do you really think organizational structure and paper unity (and unity in error), and which requires implicit assent of faith is superior in quality to the unity of the Spirit resulting from a shared conversion and relationship with the Lord Jesus?”
Where is this “shared unity” as Christians keep dividing themselves more and more? Without a Final Authority, even Christians are on the road to relativism. The relativism of I’ll decide what I like and what I don’t like. I’m sorry you think unity is so unimportant. We now have tons of Christians who defend incredible moral evils based on the idea that they and not Peter established by Jesus are the Final Authority. I’m tired of running into Christians who say in-vitro fertlization is okay because the words do not appear in the Bible. Those words do not appear in the Bible but the Pope teaches the principles from the Bible whereby in-vitro fertilization is condemned. Revelation 9:21 says the end time society will not repent of their “magic potions”. The Popes have taught from early on that these “magic potions” are early forms of contraceptives and abortifacients. But now most Catholics and Christians use abortifacient-contraceptives because they say I’m the final authority on what’s right and wrong and not the Pope. But they’re ignorant and may pay with their immortal souls. In my opinion the deification of one’s own opinion as the final authority has set the ground for the relativism destroying society.
And here is that verse; IN context:
NIV Matthew 4:18-19
18. As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
19. "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."NIV Matthew 8:14
When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.NIV Matthew 10:1-2
1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;NIV Matthew 14:28-31
28. "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"NIV Matthew 15:13-16
13. He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15. Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16. "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV Matthew 16:13-18
13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???
NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.NIV Psalms 28:1To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."NIV Habakkuk 1:12
O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.
.....No other rock.............And now you know the Biblical position!
Who decided which Scriptures were supernatural? Rome through a Council guided by the Holy Spirit.
The issue is what does this establish, and thus I asked you if your argument was that being the instruments and stewards of Divine revelation mean you are the assuredly infallible interpreters of it, and that no one has spiritual authority apart from their sanction, or in opposition to it? Affirm or deny so your polemic is clear. Instead of answering. you just went on again about Rome giving us the Bible....
How did Rome usurp that which She, guided by the Holy Spirit, decided upon in the first place?
Your answer is in response to my argument that Rome has usurped the supernaturally established Scriptures as the supreme authority by teaching things to things from praying to the departed to papal sanctioned torturing and killing of merely theological dissidents/ Thus your argument is that Rome can autocratically decree what is is Scriptural and right. Correct?
You can invoke whatever you want in support, but the reality is that Catholic teaching does not depend upon the weight of positive Scriptural warrant, only that is does not contradict Scripture, but no interpretation of Scripture has authority unless Rome gives it. Thus my first question above about what warrants this claim.
Also, the torturing and killing was a two way street. Catholics believe that the Pope is infallible when teaching on faith and morals.
This was on faith and morals, but was not a doctrine proclaimed to the whole church as such, yet your dismissal of papal sanctioned torture and murder of theological dissidents because this was not infallible, while impugning Protestants who used contraceptives (as a majority of women whom Rome treats and counts as members also do) will not do.
The issue is the basis for doctrine, the church as supreme or Scripture. Based on the latter, i reject contraception as well as mandated clerical celibacy as the norm, besides distinctively calling them priests, praying to the departed. etc. Your claims about Rome mean carry no weight with me, unless being the steward of Scripture confers perpetual infallibility and supreme authority to this entity, and that Rome distinctively is it.
Secondly, the reality is that Catholics and Catholic rulers had to obey the legislation on torture of those Rome considered "heretics," as they do now on non-infallible things if they will be considered doctrinally faithful Catholics, even though there is a little room for non-public dissent in non-infallible teachings. Which presents another problem:
There are other decisions the Popes have made which the Church does not claim are infallible.
Your answer presumes that Catholics know which of all the teachings of Rome are infallible and which ones are not, as well as what level of the magisterium other teachings fall into, and thus render the correct level of submission. This would be consistent with the position that Rome's magisterium provides the guidance you need to avoid confusion resulting from having to interpret the law-giver. Thus could you tell me where a complete infallible list of which class all teachings fall into? Of is this open to some interpretation, as well sometimes their meaning to some degree?
Rome decided upon the 72 books.(It’s not a coincidence that Jesus sent out 72 disciples.)
That depends upon how you want to count them (the OT Scriptures that Jesus referenced [Lk. 24:44] even counted some books as one but which we divide, and see here on the canon), but that's an argument one i never heard of. Harold Camping may be interested, while KJV advocates make interesting
http://www.biblebelievers.com/believers-org/kjv-stats.htm about it. I am not impressed with either as regards proof of particular Divine sanction.
But how do i know if I can trust the commentary in your Bible, and is accurate or not?
And again, since you place so much weight upon Rome giving is the Bible, which I presumed means Catholics knew for sure which ones are in it, then when did Rome provide an infallible, indisputable canon of Scripture?
And again, what place in the kingdom of God may those have who disagree with Rome have?
Jesus founded one visible Church. Not 40,000 and counting.
Besides evidencing that you again parrot statistics after they wereexposed as specious, you also ignore the fact that any body, especially sola ecclesia ones, can claim they are the supreme authority, and that the data support them. The LDs, which also operates under a sola ecclesia model, makes competing claims. And while they are fantastic ones, yet like as RCs see their church speaking as if it was God, they believe them. Thus again, upon what basis do you have assurance that Rome is the OTC?
Where is this “shared unity” as Christians keep dividing themselves more and more?
As substantiated, the shared unity is in evangelical faith and morals and commitment, based on a shared conversion and relationship with Christ which transcends divisions, with evangelicalism historically contending for certain core truths against cults who deny them, as well as Rome which adds to them certain unwarranted teachings, and thus were referred to as a distinctive class, and which is superior to what Rome fosters, despite what she says on paper. Yet both are overall declining in the latter day, and atheism rising.