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Former Episcopal priest grateful to Pope for Catholic ordinariate
cna ^ | December 8, 2012 | Kevin J. Jones

Posted on 12/08/2012 2:34:25 PM PST by NYer

Former Episcopal priest Larry Gipson. CNA file photo.

Houston, Texas, Dec 8, 2012 / 01:33 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Former Episcopal priest Laurence Gipson, who became Catholic in October, says his reaction to the Catholic ordinariate for former Anglicans is one of “gratitude.”

“The ordinariate, I think, is a wonderful opportunity for people like me, Anglican clergy and Anglican laity, who are seeking Catholic faith,” he said.

On Jan. 1, 2012, Pope Benedict XVI established the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter to allow Anglican and Episcopalian groups in the U.S. to become Catholic as groups, not only as individuals. It follows the Pope’s November 2009 apostolic constitution “Anglicanorum coetibus,” which authorized the creation of the special church structures.

Gipson, a 70-year-old native of Memphis, Tenn., said he is grateful to Pope Benedict for establishing the ordinariate. He said it is “advancing the cause of unity in the Church.”

“It offers Anglicans a way to affirm the Catholic faith, that is, a way to affirm orthodox or right belief, while at the same time being able to worship God and practice the Christian life according to the Anglican tradition and patrimony,” he told CNA Dec. 7.

“The Catholic faith and Anglican use are a great combination,” Gipson continued. “Catholics have welcomed us warmly. They’ve extended the right hand of fellowship to us, and I’m really grateful for that.”

Gipson and his wife Mary Frances were received on Oct. 28 into the Catholic Church at Houston’s Our Lady of Walsingham Church through the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

He was ordained an Episcopal priest in 1971. He served as rector of the Church of the Ascension in Knoxville, Tenn. and was dean of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Ala.

For 14 years before his retirement in February 2008, he served as rector at St. Martin’s Episcopal Church in Houston, Texas. The church’s parishioners include former President George W. Bush and his wife Laura Bush.

Gipson and his wife have been married for 48 years. They have two adult children and two grandchildren.

He said he was drawn to the Catholic faith in part because of the Church’s “clarity” in teachings and the “unity of faith amongst the faithful.”

“What I yearned for and sought was a more centralized understanding of authority, the magisterium, the teaching authority, which could much more quickly and much more definitely interpret scripture and decide on the faith when it was in dispute and settle those issues.”

Gipson said Monsignor Jeffrey Steenson, the head of the U.S. ordinariate, and the theology faculty of the University of St. Thomas were among those who helped him become Catholic.

“My hope is to be ordained to the priesthood of the Catholic Church,” Gipson said. “I would like to practice that priesthood in any way that’s useful to the ordinariate.”

“I’ve been a parish priest all of my life in the Episcopal Church, for 42 years,” Gipson said. “That’s where my enthusiasm is, at the level of the parish, teaching and preaching, pastoral ministry.”

There are at least 69 candidates for the Catholic priesthood undergoing formation for possible ordination in the ordinariate. The ordinariate has ordained 24 priests since its launch in January. Many of them are married men ordained under a special dispensation in place since 1983.

Gipson said he is “deeply grateful” for his 58 years in the Episcopal Church

“The clergy and the people of the Episcopal Church gave me and my family more in the way of acceptance and support and generosity and love than we could ever have imagined or have deserved,” he said. “Each day serving was a blessing. It prepared me for, and gave me a yearning, for the Catholic Church in its fullness in all aspects of Christ’s Church.

The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion have faced much controversy in recent decades over the interpretation of Scripture, the ordination of women as priests, Christian sexual morality and other issues.

“I see the controversies as an outcome of the nature of authority in the Anglican Church and the Anglican Communion,” Gipson said. There are 34 provincial churches in the communion which are autonomous.

“Without a magisterium to interpret and define the faith, what Anglicanism relies on is dispersed authority rather than centralized authority,” he added.

“What I realized of course is that the Anglican tradition about authority is a part of the identity of Anglicanism, and Anglicanism does not wish to change that manner of authority,” Gipson explained. “The Anglican Communion wishes authority to be dispersed. I decided that I could not ask Anglicanism to change its identity for me, so I was the one that had to do the changing.”

He asked Catholics to show “patience” towards new members of the ordinariate and the Catholic Church.

“We’re just learning how to be good Catholics and there’s a lot to learn,” he said.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: convert; ecusa; episcopal; schism
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1 posted on 12/08/2012 2:34:32 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 12/08/2012 2:35:37 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: lightman; xzins

Ping!


3 posted on 12/08/2012 3:09:25 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can’t redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: NYer

Since leaving the corrupted Episcopal church back in the 90s, I have been only to Catholic churches in Slovakia and now in the Philippines.
It is tragic what has happened to the once great ECUSA, where I was a senior warden in Tennessee.


4 posted on 12/08/2012 3:33:32 PM PST by AlexW
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To: Albion Wilde; Kolokotronis; Cronos

Thanks for the ping, Albion.

We Methodists originally were Anglican until the Revolutionary War. We are not, however, covered under the Pope’s ruling about Episcopals. Being honest, I think rightfully so. While there are “High Church Methodists” (as we would call them), even they do not approach the involved liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church.

Besides that, I also have a few doctrinal points of disagreement with the RCC. Far fewer than in the past, but nonetheless, there are still a few there.


5 posted on 12/08/2012 3:47:10 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
This is interesting to me, xzins. Could you tell a alittle mopre about how and why the Methodists split from the Episcopalians?

I've come into contact with some Methodist hymnody via shape note singing. It's musically and spiritually very good stuff, as far as I can see: i gives me a favorable "slant" towards Methodism.

Interested also in what you'd call an "involved" liturgy. At my Catholic parish, our weekday Masses never take more than half an hour. I don't know but that might be just about what y'all have except of course you'd have a LOT more sermon. :o)

6 posted on 12/08/2012 5:43:00 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Mrs. Don-o:

Not Methodist here, but I seem to remember that both of the Wesley Brothers were Anglicans who launched reform movements within the Anglican Tradition, neither of them I think ever left the church of England, but after they passed on, some of their followers broke away and Methodism became a separate community apart from Anglicanism.


7 posted on 12/08/2012 5:50:46 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: Mrs. Don-o
6 ... I've come into contact with some Methodist hymnody via shape note singing. It's musically and spiritually very good stuff, as far as I can see: i gives me a favorable "slant" towards Methodism. ...

http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=2789393&ct=9103189
33 retired (UMC) bishops urge end to gay clergy ban
by Heather Hahn
February 2, 2011

Thirty-three retired United Methodist bishops have released a statement calling on The United Methodist Church to remove its ban on homosexual clergy. The bishops noted that the church has lifted other restrictions on clergy before. ...

At the UMC's General Conference in May 2012, delegates voted 60% for and 40% against to maintain the Book of Discipline’s position that homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teachings. The American branch of the UMC is far more liberal in this matter than the overseas branches.

http://www.examiner.com/article/retired-bishop-blames-church-s-decline-on-not-affirming-homosexuality
Retired Bishop blames church's decline on not affirming homosexuality
by James-Michael Smith
July 6, 2012

In a statement during an ordination ceremony of the California-Pacific Conference of the United Methodist Church, retired Bishop Melvin Talbert (who is black and past-President of the National Council of Churches USA, 1996-1997) called on newly ordained clergy members to go against the church's Book of Discipline and perform same-sex weddings because it's the right thing to do. ...

... Bishop Talbert is not alone in his rejection of his church's doctrine on sexual issues. After General Conference, Bishop Minerva Carcano patronizingly called on African United Methodists to "grow up" after they voted to uphold the historic Christian position on same-sex sexuality.

Perhaps after 4 decades of seeking to overturn the United Methodist position on sexual ethics, it's time for the Talberts and Carcanos of the UMC to lead the way in forming their own denomination where they can be free to celebrate and affirm whatever they wish in terms of doctrine and ethics. Surely that would be better than encouraging newly ordained clergy to violate the vows they are gathered together to affirm on such occasions, would it not?

8 posted on 12/08/2012 6:05:12 PM PST by MacNaughton
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To: CTrent1564; Mrs. Don-o
7 Not Methodist here, but I seem to remember that both of the Wesley Brothers were Anglicans who launched reform movements within the Anglican Tradition, neither of them I think ever left the church of England, but after they passed on, some of their followers broke away and Methodism became a separate community apart from Anglicanism.

Former Episcopagan here who fled TEC in 2003 after 48 years. CTrent1564 is correct regarding the history of the Wesley brothers.

9 posted on 12/08/2012 6:10:28 PM PST by MacNaughton
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To: CTrent1564; MacNaughton
Thanks for this info. (Please excuse all my typos. Just call me Fallible Fingers...)

I like the Methodist hymns from the 1866 edition of Christian Harmony, which is what our shape note group sings from. The Wesleys were clearly very gifted men.

10 posted on 12/08/2012 6:33:21 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (asdfg)
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To: NYer

Welcome home, Larry Gipson.


11 posted on 12/08/2012 7:15:30 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer


12 posted on 12/08/2012 7:16:23 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MacNaughton
Retired Bishop blames church's decline on not affirming homosexuality...

The mess in the American Methodist Church is a disgrace. Certainly this is not the reason people "fled" -- the bleeding started long ago, with the radical leftism in the seminaries of the 60s. Also, the missionaries funded by the UMC were infected with cultural Marxism in Africa around the same time.

Catholics are doubtless familiar with Protestant complaints against their denomination; however, this politically correct pressure to change the plain meaning of the scriptures has become endemic in the mainline Protestant churches over the past 40 years and points to the value of the Catholic magisterium. There is a vacuum at the top of Protestantism.

U.S. Protestantism is also a victim of its own success, having come into sociopolitical power when the U.S. was young and ascendant. Its members often found themselves to be the "respected families" or "leading businessmen" in small-town America, and the political class -- Presidents, Senators, judges, university faculty, etc, came mainly from the ranks of Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and a few Methodists. This was true up until the end of WWI. Individuals forgot the gospel of humility as they equated church attendance with self-importance, political power and influence in the community.

The rot in the UMC came to a head in the 60s and 70s, which is when the Methodist Episcopal Church began selling off its universities (which are now leftist bastions like Duke), nursing homes (which are now politically correct Medicare outposts), etc., and consolidating with the Evangelical United Brethren Church in 1968. Attendance dropped dramatically in the 70s, 80s and 90s, way before anyone dreamed the U.S. would accept homosexual "marriage." The mainline Protestant denominations may never recover.

13 posted on 12/08/2012 7:58:36 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can’t redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The founders of Methodism, John Wesley, his wife Susanna Wesley and his brother Charles Wesley, as well as the first bishop Francis Asbury, wanted to address the class divisions in the England of their day and make church more meaningful to common people. The Anglican Church had become very "high" and also "mighty". John Wesley was the primary theologian and Charles Wesley one of the finest Christian hymnists of all time, as was Fanny Crosby, whose work you will also find in many versions of Methodist hymnals.

Many, if not most, of Charles Wesley's lyrics are drawn directly from the Gospels or the Psalms.The Wesleys believed that singing was an important part of learning the gospel and participating in worship. Every service contains four to six hymns sung in harmony, as well as sung responses and one or more choir pieces. I found this method to be true, as I have difficulty consciously hearing lyrics of music; yet when I hit a bad time in my life and had fallen away from church, the lyrics of the hymns I had sung throughout my youth started coming back to me and provided comfort and inspiration to keep me going and help me return to security in the Word.

Some early Methodist hymns were new lyrics attached to familiar tunes, even drinking songs and folk songs from the pubs, as the Wesleys reached out to people who felt intimidated by the high church. Temperance was another important feature of early Methodism, continuing until very recently.

There is a slim volume by John Wesley that illuminates his "methodical" way of discipline in the Christian life, called A Plain Account of Christian Perfection. The socially conservative, disciplined, and modestly fervent Christianity of Wesley (he even instructed followers not to bellow or call attention to oneself when singing, but to temper one's volume to all the others in the congregation), a beautiful community that I remember so fondly from early childhood, has given way to just another outpost of the Democrat party.

I left after five generations of my family in the Methodist church due to a crescendo of shocking liberalisms, including the fights over homosexual affirmation in the 90s. For just one example, as we planned a prayer service open to the community for the day after 9/11, a Democrat committeewoman in our congregation chided me for suggesting that we pray, among many other things, that the teachings of Christ would become more clearly understood to all the world. She said it would offend any non-Christians who might come to our service. The pastor took her side. I could not believe my ears. It was only the tip of the iceberg.

14 posted on 12/08/2012 8:31:26 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can’t redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: xzins

Interesting commentary. I did not know how narrow the Pope’s ordinariate is.

Recently I attended a “traditional Anglican” church. The liturgy reminded me of my youth as a “Methodist Episcopal”, before the UMC merger.

I, too, am having fewer arguments with the RCC as I continue to study the Bible. I still value the freedom of Protestantism; but unfortunately, many of our denominations or congregations have become as corrupted as the church Luther sought to reform.


15 posted on 12/08/2012 8:41:39 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can’t redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Hi, Mrs D. Forgive the brief post, but duty calls on weekends (especially Sunday), so I’ll condense a bunch of history into a few lines.

Essentially, both Episcopalian and Methodist Churches come from the Anglican Church. The Revolutionary war saw most Anglican (fore-runners of ECUSA) ministers either shut down or flee due to suspicions about their allegiance. Methodism at the time was a movement within those churches in the same way that you might have a charismatic movement within a church today. (Charismatic is not a denomination)

The founder of the Methodist movement, John Wesley was an Anglican priest. He became concerned at the inability of “methodist” Anglicans to receive sacraments and rites of the church due to the lack of Anglican priests.

Therefore, relying on the ancient “in extremis” practice of the church, he ordained a man to come to the Americas and be a bishop to ordain others. These American “methodist-episcopals” were left alone, essentially, until pretty much after the war of 1812, so some 40 years+.

That’s it in a nutshell.


16 posted on 12/09/2012 2:01:07 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Albion Wilde

Should have pinged you to #16


17 posted on 12/09/2012 2:02:42 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Albion Wilde

Should have pinged you to #16


18 posted on 12/09/2012 2:03:00 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Albion Wilde

Thank you for this good explanation. I say to myself: Awake and sing!


19 posted on 12/09/2012 5:43:06 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (asdfg)
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To: xzins

That’s a pretty interesting history. The “in extremis” ordaining of priests, consecration of bishops is something I hadn’t known about. I’ll -— thanks to you — be motivated to do some reading on the subject.


20 posted on 12/09/2012 5:45:51 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (asdfg)
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To: xzins; Mrs. Don-o
I’ll -— thanks to you — be motivated to do some reading on the subject.

Me, too! Very interesting American history there, Pastor. Bless you, and you, too, Mrs. D! Happy singing!

21 posted on 12/09/2012 9:52:34 AM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; xzins

PS

Mrs. Don-o, I should clarify my above remarks and point out, especially with respect to our dear fellow FReeper xzins, that not all UMC congregations have drunk the Kool-Aid. It is mainly the areas around large cities most affected. There are many parts of the country where a truer strain of Methodism is still carried forward. I always enjoy going to church with my relatives in the Carolinas and Georgia, for instance; and rarely feel assaulted by secularism as I do in the UMC in the Northern areas. It’s going to take a long time to clear out the seminary graduates from the 60s and 70s still running the bishoprics.


22 posted on 12/09/2012 9:59:28 AM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Albion Wilde; Mrs. Don-o
Susanna Wesley was the mother of John and Charles Wesley; their father's name was Samuel. Charles Wesley was the greatly gifted musician, and the talent was passed to his descendants.

John was married, but it didn't work out: Wesley married very unhappily at the age of forty-eight to a widow, Mary Vazeille, and had no children. Vazeille left him fifteen years later, to which Wesley wryly reported in his journal, "I did not forsake her, I did not dismiss her, I will not recall her." (Wikipedia)

I particularly like the phrasing, "Wesley married very unhappily": one can almost see him, all a-gloom at the altar, knowing it's a mistake.

23 posted on 12/09/2012 10:40:20 AM PST by Tax-chick (More than you ever wanted to know, right?)
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To: Tax-chick
I particularly like the phrasing, "Wesley married very unhappily": one can almost see him, all a-gloom at the altar, knowing it's a mistake.

That sinking feeling....wish I had known what a "feeling" was when I got married -- might have changed the course of events! LOL!

24 posted on 12/09/2012 12:55:39 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Albion Wilde

My father told me, “If you change your mind at the last minute, we’ll still eat all the food and drink all the champagne.” If only there’d been someone to tell John Wesley, “It’s okay to change your mind.”


25 posted on 12/09/2012 1:11:56 PM PST by Tax-chick (More than you ever wanted to know, right?)
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To: Tax-chick
If only there’d been someone to tell John Wesley, “It’s okay to change your mind.”

My Depression-era mother had a fit when I threw away my wedding photo album after my divorce -- because "it had cost good money!"

I should have been a writer for the Carol Burnett show's "Mama" episodes.

26 posted on 12/09/2012 1:19:56 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Albion Wilde

LOL! It’s not like you could eat the album ...


27 posted on 12/09/2012 1:22:21 PM PST by Tax-chick (More than you ever wanted to know, right?)
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To: Tax-chick
My father told me, “If you change your mind at the last minute, we’ll still eat all the food and drink all the champagne.”

PS

Now that you've given him 10 grandkids, has your dad come around to thinking it will work out?

28 posted on 12/09/2012 1:22:34 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Albion Wilde

Yes ... although he was always ready to back up any decision I made, even 15 years later (other than moving back in with him and Mom ;-). My parents’ friends and neighbors are surprised when the see all the pictures in their apartment, especially when they find out it’s all one family.

They also get surprised comments on the fact that none of the children have (by the standards of their generation) strange, trendy names. Any one of them could run for President with his heavyweight moniker.


29 posted on 12/09/2012 1:34:27 PM PST by Tax-chick (More than you ever wanted to know, right?)
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To: Tax-chick
Yes ... although he was always ready to back up any decision I made...

What a great dad!

Well, off I go into the last smidgen of sunlight to trim the clematis off the trellis. It's been fun as always "typing" with you!

30 posted on 12/09/2012 1:37:25 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: Albion Wilde

Same here! We just let our clematis turn brown and hang on the trellis, also the morning glories!


31 posted on 12/09/2012 1:38:42 PM PST by Tax-chick (More than you ever wanted to know, right?)
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To: Albion Wilde
I had thought there were probably liberal vs conservative factions. The Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights :o( used to have their headquarters inthe United Methodist Bldg in Washington, DC --- don't know if they still do ro not --- but I knew a couple of prolife Methodist gals who were mad as hell about that. It's always a struggle, wherever you go.

"Religious Coalition." Gah. See tagline.

32 posted on 12/09/2012 2:24:02 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("As it is written, the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Romans 2:24)
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To: Albion Wilde
13 The mess in the American Methodist Church is a disgrace. Certainly this is not the reason people "fled" -- the bleeding started long ago, with the radical leftism in the seminaries of the 60s. ...

Same story in TEC (The Episcopal Church).

... Also, the missionaries funded by the UMC were infected with cultural Marxism in Africa around the same time.

Did not know that wrinkle. Thanks for the insight.

Catholics are doubtless familiar with Protestant complaints against their denomination; however, this politically correct pressure to change the plain meaning of the scriptures has become endemic in the mainline Protestant churches over the past 40 years and points to the value of the Catholic magisterium. ...

I share your sensibility ... still the RCC has some more penance to go through to account for its history of shuffling pedophile priests off to new assignments where they could prey upon the innocent elsewhere.

... There is a vacuum at the top of Protestantism. ...

Excellent laconic statement! Now the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) has elected a black president (2012) in the hope that by embracing "diversity", it will reverse membership decline. Not going to happen.

... The rot in the UMC came to a head in the 60s and 70s, which is when the Methodist Episcopal Church began selling off its universities (which are now leftist bastions like Duke) ...

Earned my MS at NCSU in 1980 just down the road from Durham and worked in W-S,NC for 15 years. I can vouch for this statement.

... nursing homes (which are now politically correct Medicare outposts), etc., and consolidating with the Evangelical United Brethren Church in 1968. Attendance dropped dramatically in the 70s, 80s and 90s, way before anyone dreamed the U.S. would accept homosexual "marriage." The mainline Protestant denominations may never recover.

My crystal ball thinks there will be more Protestant schisms and mergers in the decades ahead. I can imagine a merger between the liberal (US) UMC, ELCA, PCUSA, and a host of smaller like-minded denominations.

33 posted on 12/09/2012 2:28:01 PM PST by MacNaughton
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To: MacNaughton
... There is a vacuum at the top of Protestantism. ...

To expand on this a bit further: when the original schism took place, Luther and Melanchthon intended for the Lutheran Book of Concord to take the place of the magisterium. Clergy and laypersons were to adhere to the written canon instead of buying and selling indulgences, etc. In fact, as an Augustinian monk, Luther never intended to break from the Roman Catholic Church, only to reform it. But once the break was set in motion, other breakaways began, with tight or loose canon law. Now Protestantism has become a mishmash of traditions, equities in real estate, local folkways, and even storefront ministries, with thousands upon thousands of misunderstandings.


Now the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) has elected a black president (2012) in the hope that by embracing "diversity", it will reverse membership decline. Not going to happen.

This will work out approximately as well as appointing Michael Steele to head up the RNC in 2008 in response to a Halfrican dude being nominated for president by the Democrats.

34 posted on 12/09/2012 4:33:38 PM PST by Albion Wilde (Government can't redistribute talent, willpower, or intelligence, except through dictatorship.)
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To: xzins; Albion Wilde; Mrs. Don-o; MacNaughton
If I'm not mistaken, Methodism arose out of the "Low Church" Church of England? Methodism may be attacked by some evangelicals as too liberal, but they have a glorious history --> Methodists in the late 1700s and 1800 were instrumental in not only ending slavery in the British Empire but turning the Brits into violently anti-slavery, such that British ships were ordered to attack slave carrying ships and free them

Mrs. Don-o --> I believe that the originators of Methodism never intended theirs to be a separate church from the broad swathe of Anglicanism but were looking for revival in strict method. however, over time the CoE and the Methodists drifted apart

35 posted on 12/09/2012 10:03:26 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: xzins; MacNaughton
Mac -- it's fools like these "bishops" who are demolishing each denomination: "Retired Bishop blames church's decline on not affirming homosexuality" --> don't they read the numbers and see that denominations that "affirm homosexuality" are declining rapidly -- faster than others?

And, looking at the timing from the 60s onwards, I see a broad trend. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would see a broadbased attack on all Churches starting from the 60s, with deep undercover "agents". Or, it could just be that the churches were lax in the 60s...

36 posted on 12/09/2012 10:07:28 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: NYer; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


37 posted on 12/09/2012 10:09:21 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


38 posted on 12/09/2012 10:10:25 PM PST by narses
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To: Albion Wilde
There are technically no more real Protestants any more. The term is defunct/dead imho. Let me explain. The first and second generation of reformation groups included Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed and Anglicans

Most are sadly destroyed by Satan's attacks and if we look at the largest denominations within these, they are already pagan -- the ECUSA leading the pack (and the CoE not far behind) with the ELCA, PCUSA following

Newer groups such as Baptists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals are break-aways from the first so are not technically Protestant as they did not break away from orthodoxy

They are also varyingly different in theology and beliefs from orthodoxy -- some close, some extremely far (for example the Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity, a basic Christian belief and the Seventh Day Adventists have concepts as strange as "Satan taking on the sins of the world" etc.)

39 posted on 12/09/2012 10:12:13 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Albion Wilde; xzins; Mrs. Don-o
albion -- you bring out a very good point of how attachment to government can be cancer to a church. If I look at history and at Europe today, i see three places were Christianity is strong -- in Italy and in the former eastern bloc states of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and in Greece (in Serbia, Russia, etc. it is growing) and I see the linkage as being that in these places, the Church was not associated with the government -- even in Italy where the Pope was basically a prisoner from 1870 until the Concordat.

In Greece the communist and then dictatorial places kept the Church separate

Churches should stay away from government, it's cancer to any Church.

40 posted on 12/09/2012 10:18:35 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: MacNaughton; Albion Wilde
Now the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) has elected a black president (2012) in the hope that by embracing "diversity", it will reverse membership decline. Not going to happen.

i don't know enough about this beyond what I've read in the online papers, but I don't believe that they elected the black President just to embrace diversity. From what i've read about him (admittedly very little), he seems conservative and a good President for the SBC

41 posted on 12/09/2012 10:21:50 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: MacNaughton; Albion Wilde
Note of course that the administration side of the fence has sins, yes. But the magisterium in terms of keeping true to doctrine has, thanks to God alone, stayed true imho

I agree with Albion's Luther never intended to break from the Roman Catholic Church, only to reform it. But once the break was set in motion, other breakaways began, with tight or loose canon law. -- in fact he and Calvin and Zwingli tried to form a council. Luther, iirc was appalled by the continuing innovations, complaining that people now threw out one piece of doctrine or the other.

42 posted on 12/09/2012 10:23:59 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
36 ... it's fools like these "bishops" who are demolishing each denomination: "Retired Bishop blames church's decline on not affirming homosexuality" --> don't they read the numbers and see that denominations that "affirm homosexuality" are declining rapidly -- faster than others?

Cronos, you obviously see the bigger problem - ALL Christian denominations in the west are suffering declining membership rolls - even the recent growth denominations within the evangelical/pentecostal churches and the non-denominational movement. The evidence does point to a faster rate of decline within those protestant denominations which have embraced "social justice" and the LBGTQ wave, i.e., UCC, TEC, ELCA, and PCUSA.

43 posted on 12/10/2012 12:26:32 AM PST by MacNaughton
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To: Cronos
41 i don't know enough about this beyond what I've read in the online papers, but I don't believe that they elected the black President just to embrace diversity. From what i've read about him (admittedly very little), he seems conservative and a good President for the SBC

Yes, he does seem to be orthodox in his beliefs. Just repeating opinons I have read on SBC sites. He did say, within a week of his election, that he intended to put more blacks into positions of influence within the SBC ranks. That sounded ominous to me. Haven't heard much lately from him ... we shall see what develops.

44 posted on 12/10/2012 12:34:38 AM PST by MacNaughton
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To: Albion Wilde
...a beautiful community that I remember so fondly from early childhood, has given way to just another outpost of the Democrat party.

Interesting observation. Methodism gave us Hillary Clinton who often talks about how her dedication to "public service" has its roots in the Methodism of her youth.

45 posted on 12/10/2012 4:00:45 AM PST by afraidfortherepublic
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To: Cronos; Albion Wilde; Mrs. Don-o; MacNaughton
If I'm not mistaken, Methodism arose out of the "Low Church" Church of England?

In that era, what was viewed to be low church -- and especially in terms of sacramental ministry -- would be very high church today, and that even in many Catholic Churches. One Catholic Contemporary service I attended a few years back, led by a Franciscan priest, had a barely high church eucharist. And certainly, when doing joint services with priests during my Army years, they cut so many corners when we were in "field/deployed" conditions, that their service was barely distinguishable from a protestant field service. Methodism...ending slavery in the British Empire

I have no doubt that John Wesley, who was a friend of MP and British abolitionist William Wilburforce, was the major voice that turned Wilberforce against slavery. Wesley taught that liberty was God and a matter of natural law.

Wesley OFTEN spoke out that Methodism should not be separate from Anglicanism. The nature of travel and communication in the 18th century, however, made the Methodist movement evolve independent of the Anglican Church from Revolutionary War times until well past the war of 1812.

The very nature of what was happening in America -- with the westward expansion, the establishment of small settlement churches, their pastors being traveling, itinerant preachers -- all of that was a NECESSARY element to the expansion of Christianity westward in an American frontier culture. High Church Anglicanism simply would have been insufficient to the task. (For example see "The History of Methodism in Kentucky" by W.E. Arnold, Herald Presss, 1935.) The early years were simply harrowing for those itinerant Methodist preachers, and taking up that calling was too often a death sentence for them brought on by illness, accident, or native attack.

Theological liberalism won over mainstream seminaries early in the 20th century with their biblical criticism, search for a historical Jesus, and their moderate approach to "life lessons" gained from scripture. It was poisoned fruit with many seminarians thinking they were choosing "open-mindedness". They weren't. The real choice was between divinely inspired scripture and human reason. By choosing human reason, they subscribed to a fallen, flawed, inherent depravity that would gradually take them all the way to today...a rejection of scripture, God, and sound Christian doctrine.

The people learned too late what was transpiring with their "leaders". By then these had infested their hierarchies, and their only recourse was to fight or leave. The infestation was so bad in many denominations that we've lived to see the result, and we've lived to see the believers in those denomination depart them.

Methodism still struggles on, and we have our victories. The infestation in our slow-moving governmental structure is nearly impossible to dislodge. We have held the line until this era against homosexuality and have gradually moved toward a more acceptable position on life.

This culture, though, is so thoroughly indoctrinated on homosexuality that I fear that battle is going to be lost in our denomination, and I fear for every other denomination, even those with independent, local governance.

46 posted on 12/10/2012 6:45:53 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
Thank you for these frank historical and personal reflections. It gives me a lot to think about.

I share your fear that many denominations are going to lose the fight against the pseudosex, pseudomarriage agenda.

Initially, I'd hesitate to suggest that you go slumming, but let me say: armor yourself with protection via the Holy Spirit, and then check out the following slum: Gay Christian websites (Link).

Any of them will give you the same theme: the re-intepretation of Scripture (via "improved," "new," "expert" "translations" and "scholarship,") which all arrive at the same conclusions: that the O.T. and N.T. admonitions which have always been interpreted as very broad, exceptionless norms against gay sex, are to be seen as narrow, technical condemnations specifically of pagan temple prostitution and (possible) servile pederasty ONLY, but not against ALL male-male and female-female sex relations.

It all hinges on a tendentious translation of malakoi and arsenokoitai to mean, not all same-sex relations, but only to those particular cultural forms which were prevalent amongst the Canaanites (OT) and the pagan Greeks (NT). In other words, it can't apply to nice, normal, Christian gay couples who are married or want to be married, because this was a form of behavior unknown and unaddressed in Biblical times.

It's a clever argument, and it's not definitively refutable outside of Natural Law and the doctrines of historic Christianity. It will carry the day in any seminary, and in any congregation, that goes with what is plausible and nice and supported by attractve churchy people. They'll do gay marriages, toting big Bibles, and scattering rose petals under Paul-quoting banners that say "Marriage is honorable for all, and the bed undefiled," and "He who loves his neighbor, has fulfilled the whole Law."

47 posted on 12/10/2012 7:26:54 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Point of correction.)
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To: xzins
The infestation in our slow-moving governmental structure is nearly impossible to dislodge

Do you believe that this started in the 60s?

48 posted on 12/10/2012 7:33:37 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: xzins

And your post tells me I need to learn more about the differences between High and Low Church


49 posted on 12/10/2012 7:35:20 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: NYer
Maybe seeing how the Mass can be said in English will help us get rid of this Novus Ordo nonsense. I attend a Tridentine Mass, not out of any fondness for Latin, nor out of nostalgia, but because I want to attend a dignified and beautiful Mass. With the Ordinariate, the former Anglicans now have not only validity but their traditional beauty.
50 posted on 12/10/2012 7:50:13 AM PST by JoeFromSidney ( New book: RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY. Buy from Amazon.)
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