THE VIRGIN BIRTH: A MYSTERY TO BE CRIED ALOUD

Reformed Perspectives ^ | 2002 | John Hartog III, TH.D.

[Romulus]

There is no atonement without the immaculate conception.

[Slyfox]

the repeated mention of Jesus' siblings

The Hebrew language had no word for cousin - those related by blood around the same age were called "brothers."

If God, through the angel Gabriel, were to ask Mary to take on the task of being the Mother of God, surely He would have abided by and would have found a way to satisfy her wish to remain a virgin.

[NotTallTex]

So we are to assume that after Christ’s birth Mary became just an ordinary woman? Not believable. “Blessed are you and blessed is the fruit of thy womb”. I believe “blessed” is the important word here.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Roman Catholic tenets of Mary's immaculate conception

Shared and taught by Luther.

and her perpetual virginity

Shared and taught by Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, et al.

Most contemporary protestants are unaware of and thus protest the original tenets of the founders of their own denominations.

[onedoug]

Why is Matthew then, so concerned with the patrilineal line to Joseph?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"The Hebrew language had no word for cousin - those related by blood around the same age were called "brothers."

The NT is not written in Hebrew. There is no reason to think Christ was speaking in Hebrew - other than when He read from the Scroll in the Temple.

Greek does indeed have a word for "cousin," anepsios, which is used in Colossians 4:10 to describe the relationship between Barnabas and Mark. Paul, who wrote Colossians, and evidently knew the word for "cousin", did not apply it to James, the Lord's "brother", in Galatians 1:19. Matthew and Luke also wrote their gospels in Greek, and they certainly had a word for "cousin" at their disposal. They didn't use it because it was inaccurate: these were Jesus' real brothers.

"There is no need for all this wrangling to support an erroneous theological position concocted in the dark ages by dualistic philosophers that had taken control of the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible says what it means and means what it says: Jesus did indeed have brothers. His mother lost her virginity sometime after He was born. That's why the Bible very clearly states that Joseph “kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son...” (Matthew 1:25, NASB). That means Joseph didn't keep her a virgin forever, but until some time after she had given birth to Jesus. The fact that Mary indulged in sex with her husband after Jesus was born does not in any way diminish from who she was; but to claim that her having sex diminished her, as Roman Catholicism does, is an insult to Jesus' mother!"

http://www.compassdistributors.ca/topics/cousin.htm

"If God, through the angel Gabriel, were to ask Mary to take on the task of being the Mother of God, surely He would have abided by and would have found a way to satisfy her wish to remain a virgin."

This wish isn't recorded in the Bible. God didn't ask her to take on the task. He told her what would happen.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Most contemporary protestants are unaware of and thus protest the original tenets of the founders of their own denominations. “

I’m not sure that you realize what a small percent of Christians look to Luther, Calvin or Zwingli as their founders... We are thankful for what they recovered. They are not viewed as infallible. They are simply a part of Church history we learn from.

I can assure you I am aware of their failings! And their insights and am thankful for recovering the Gospel of Grace and promoting the wide spread of the Scriptures in ordinary language.

[Mr. K]

"There is no atonement without the immaculate conception. "

What earth does that possibly mean?

Do we really need to argue ab out whether Mary was "doing it" before OR after Jesus' birth?

How is arguin amongst ourselve about things we cannot POSSIBLY determine factually progressing faith and hope and charity and goodwill?

Maybe the two sides of this issue can just get in a ring and beat the crap out of each other ontil one admits the other knows all that is right without question?

Or how about we talk about important things like getting everyone to be good to each other and follow Jesus' teaching and let everyone believe how they want to believe?

[Romulus]

So as not to waste the valuable time of others, please learn the meaning of terms before attempting to join the conversation.

[Slyfox]

The angel of the Lord first told her what the Lord had planned, that He had chosen her to bear His Son, but He still wanted her decision. At the moment she made her choice in the affirmative, knowing full well what it would mean, our salvation began.

Later, Mary was interviewed by St. Luke and he recorded her responses. We would have no Nativity narrative nor any eyewitness account of Jesus' hidden years had it not been for His mother.

[Campion]

Paul, who wrote Colossians, and evidently knew the word for "cousin", did not apply it to James, the Lord's "brother", in Galatians 1:19. Matthew and Luke also wrote their gospels inf Greek, and they certainly had a word for "cousin" at their disposal. They didn't use it because it was inaccurate: these were Jesus' real brothers.

Scripture tells us about James' parentage: he's the "son of Alphaeus" (Mt 10:3), not Joseph. Some people have invented the notion that "James, the brother of the Lord" and James, son of Alphaeus, were two different people. Neither Scripture nor tradition support this. We know of two apostles named "James," one the son of Zebedee and the other the son of Alphaeus, not three.

Nobody except Jesus is ever described as a son or daughter of Mary by blood in Scripture. If we're going to "be silent where Scripture is silent," we have to be silent there.

It's also trivial to prove from Scripture that Mary had no blood children, other than Jesus, alive by the time of the Crucifixion. On the Cross, Jesus gave Mary to John, who everyone agrees was not a blood relative of either of them. If Jesus had living brothers or sisters, he sinned gravely in almost his last moment of earthly life by absolving them of one of the most important commandments, "Honor thy father and thy mother."

[HarleyD]

Roman Catholic tenets of Mary's immaculate conception - Shared and taught by Luther.

Perhaps but denied by Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Nobody except Jesus is ever described as a son or daughter of Mary by blood in Scripture. If we’re going to “be silent where Scripture is silent,” we have to be silent there.”

You choose a silent point to prove a silent point? Yet, Scripture isn’t required to meet your criteria of proof.

Since there are people identified as brothers, and Greek has a word for cousin and a word for brother, and the word for cousin isn’t used, your burden to make it into something else is heavy.

If you want an argument from silence, focus on the notion that Mary stayed a virgin - in violation of Paul’s commandments to couples to only withhold sex for a short time.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

From a friend... comments about the Galatians 1:19 passage you quoted.

“These brothers [of the Lord] have been regarded:

(a) by the Orthodox churches as sons of Joseph by a previous marriage (the ‘Epiphanian’ view)

(b) in Roman Catholic interpretation as Jesus’ first cousins, the sons of ‘Mary wife of Clopas,’ who was the Virgin’s sister (Jn. 19:25; the ‘Hieronymian’ view)

(c) by Protestant exegetes as Jesus’ uterine brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (the ‘Helvidian’ view). This last view accords best with the natural implications of Mk. 6:3, where the context suggests that the brothers, together with the sisters unspecified by name, were, like Jesus himself, children of Mary.”

Constable, T. (2003). Tom Constable’s Expository Notes on the Bible

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Slyfox,
I find large agreement with what you penned.
We are thankful for the gift she played a roll in delivering.
ampu

[HarleyD]

Matthew wrote to the Jews so his interest lie with showing Christ’s linage from Joseph. Luke wrote to the Gentiles so his interest lie with showing Christ’s linage from Mary.

[HarleyD]

The angel of the Lord first told her what the Lord had planned, that He had chosen her to bear His Son, but He still wanted her decision.

Sorry, Mary did not give a decision.

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

There is nothing in this event of God's angel asking Mary if it would be OK with her. Rather the angel is telling Mary what was going to happen. Mary was submissive to God's will-that's all.

[onedoug]

The lineage from Luke 3:23-38 is also through Joseph in which Mary is not mentioned. Thus again, how is this relevant given her ostensible virginity?

[Salvation]

Virgin Birth refers to the Annunciation -- Read Luke 1: 26 and onwards.

The Mystery of the Annunciation is the Mystery of Grace, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger [Catholic Caucus]

Following the Truth: Listening To Mary’s Voice – Part 3 (Submission) [Catholic Caucus]
Following the Truth: Listening To Mary’s Voice – Part 2 (Humility)[Catholic Caucus]
Following the Truth: Listening To Mary’s Voice: Part 1, Confusion [Catholic Caucus]
Following The Truth: What If Mary Said “No”? (Catholic or Open)
Day of the Unborn Child on the Feast of the Annunciation (Catholic Caucus)
The Wonder of Annunciation
Lebanese Sheik Helped Get Annunciation Recognized as National Holiday
Why Be Catholic? 8: Incarnation [Ecumenical]
Catholic Word of the Day: INCARNATION, 02-12-10
The Wonder of the Incarnation

The Annunciation: When Freedom and Love Were One by Bishop Fulton Sheen
The Baltimore Cathechism: The Incarnation - Lesson Seven
Feast of the Annunciation: March 25 [Catholic Caucus]
THE ANNUNCIATION: MARY'S OPENNESS TO THE WILL OF GOD [Pope John Paul II] (Catholic Caucus)
Fear of the Incarnation and its Discontents [Ecumenical]
Theological word Of The Day: Incarnation
The Incarnation - Lesson 7 from the Baltimore Cathechism
Day of the Unborn Child Celebrated Internationally on March 25, Remembrance of Christ's Incarnation
Fiat! - Blessed Annunciation
The Eve of the nnunciation

Vatican changes dates for 2008 Annunciation, St. Joseph feasts
Orthodox Feast of the Annunciation of the Theotokos, March 25
HOMILIES PREACHED BY FATHER ALTIER ON THE FEAST OF THE ANUNCIATION
THE ANNUNCIATION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Annunciation of the Most Holy Theotokos, March 25
Feast of the Annunciation - March 25th
Discipleship in Mary
The Power of One Hail Mary
The Annuniciation [Pavone]
Happy Mothers Day - The Annunciation - a poem