Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Reformation Sunday or All Saints Day?
Ponderings on a Faith Journey ^ | October 31, 2009 | Bob Cornwall

Posted on 11/01/2012 8:58:12 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Tomorrow we have our choice -- we can go with Reformation Sunday or All Saints Day. We can sing "For All the Saints" or "A Mighty Fortress is Our God." Being that I pastor neither a Lutheran nor a Presbyterian Church, and thus my connections as a Disciple to the Reformation of the 16th century are more derivative than direct, and perhaps because my sermon tomorrow has to do with the Worship of God, we'll take the All Saints Day route. But, instead of For All the Saints, we'll be singing Holy, Holy, Holy.

But, it would be appropriate to note that it was on October 31, 1517, that Martin Luther launched the Reformation of the 16th century by publishing his "95 Theses," inviting a debate on matters of reform within the Catholic Church, with special attention given to indulgences and purgatory. It's only later that he is evicted from that church and helps found a new community of faith.

One principal of the Reformation that would be appropriate to remember today is the one that goes by the tune of "Reformata et Semper Reformanda" -- "Reformed and Always Reforming." And such should be our motto, especially the latter part of the statement -- for we should always be seeking to reform our practice of the faith, as we listen for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Reformers understood well that reform was an ongoing effort and not once for all!


TOPICS: Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformationday
Being that I pastor neither a Lutheran nor a Presbyterian Church, and thus my connections as a Disciple to the Reformation of the 16th century are more derivative than direct, and perhaps because my sermon tomorrow has to do with the Worship of God, we'll take the All Saints Day route....

....One principal of the Reformation that would be appropriate to remember today is the one that goes by the tune of "Reformata et Semper Reformanda" -- "Reformed and Always Reforming."

1 posted on 11/01/2012 8:58:22 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
This has always been solved in Lutheran churches I have belonged to by celebrating Reformation Sunday the Sunday before 10/31 and All Saints Sunday the Sunday after 10/31.
2 posted on 11/01/2012 9:13:30 AM PDT by Conservative Actuary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Luther started it on Halloween? Really? And that doesn’t indicate to you who his real father is? the devil took over martin’s soul and led him


3 posted on 11/01/2012 9:19:30 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

The Methodist Church celebrates both Reformation Sunday (the last one in October) and All Saints Sunday, which comes a week later. At the All Saints service, the names of parishioners who have departed over the previous year are read, and we sing, “For All the Saints.” We could also sing, “When the Saints Go Marching In,” but that isn’t in our hymnal.


4 posted on 11/01/2012 9:21:47 AM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
But, instead of For All the Saints,

I like Holy, Holy, Holy, but it is a poor substitute for For All The Saints.

5 posted on 11/01/2012 9:23:34 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Until I read the recent threads on the subject, I'd never even heard of Reformation Day.
6 posted on 11/01/2012 9:34:38 AM PDT by Joseph Harrolds
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
Luther started it on Halloween? Really? And that doesn’t indicate to you who his real father is? the devil took over martin’s soul and led him

I have my doubts that Halloween was observed in 1517 as it is today. When I was in Germany in the 1960's and early 1970's, the only ones celebrating Halloween were American "overseas brats." They would hold a Halloween party at Burg Frankenstein, an abandoned medieval castle on a hilltop south of Darmstadt that on October 31 was transformed into "Frankenstein's Castle."

7 posted on 11/01/2012 9:36:20 AM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0070.html

it’s pagan


8 posted on 11/01/2012 9:41:02 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
Luther started it on Halloween? Really? And that doesn’t indicate to you who his real father is? the devil took over martin’s soul and led him

He bought an indulgence.

9 posted on 11/01/2012 9:45:13 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: xone
He bought an indulgence.

Did you know that you can still buy indulgences today? It's only the currency that has changed. Today you trade your labor for it, instead of coin.

10 posted on 11/01/2012 9:48:16 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Semper Reformanda!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: xone

no one is defending selling of indulgences, that was just the hook luther hung his sinful hat on when he formed his own “church”


11 posted on 11/01/2012 9:52:20 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

never heard of it. You can certainly do penance for your sins


12 posted on 11/01/2012 9:53:40 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: xone
I like Holy, Holy, Holy, but it is a poor substitute for For All The Saints.

Another great gospel song by John Dykes, composer of the music for "Holy, Holy, Holy," that would be appropriate for All Saints Day is "Ten Thousand Times Ten Thousand" (1875).

Ten thousand times ten thousand in sparkling raiment bright,
The armies of the ransomed saints throng up the steeps of light;
’Tis finished, all is finished, their fight with death and sin;
Fling open wide the golden gates, and let the victors in.

13 posted on 11/01/2012 10:01:23 AM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
no one is defending selling of indulgences....never heard of it

Really? Allow me to indulge you:
Catholics hope to cleanse indulgences of their bad reputation
Baylor Lariat, Catholic professor spar over indulgences revival
Catholics given chance at shorter stay in Purgatory
Papal Indulgences, Two Ways: Easy and Hard
Trips to Lourdes to Cut Time Spent in Purgatory
Philadelphia archdiocese offers indulgences
8 TIPS TO HELP YOU WALTZ THROUGH PURGATORY!

14 posted on 11/01/2012 10:06:20 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Semper Reformanda!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
it’s pagan

That makes it even less likely that Luther, a devout Christian, was into Halloween.

15 posted on 11/01/2012 10:06:30 AM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill

He was not a devout Christian.


16 posted on 11/01/2012 10:10:45 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
He was not a devout Christian.

Yes, he was. How about yourself?

17 posted on 11/01/2012 10:17:06 AM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Did you know that you can still buy indulgences today?

I did not know that, I'm not in the market for one anyway.

18 posted on 11/01/2012 10:23:44 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
He was not a devout Christian.

Well, then. That pretty much settles it.

No need for anything like an actual discussion of facts.

19 posted on 11/01/2012 10:24:34 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
no one is defending selling of indulgences,

Wow, Bill Clinton Tetzl. Nice use of the verb tense. The fact is, and remains that the Catholic Church of the time did in fact not only defend the practice but promoted it. Of course when the papacy at the time was being bought and sold and those great Italian humanitarians the Borgias and de Medici were in the business of God, what are a few indulgences? Indulgences fit well with bribery and simony.

Luther had a cowl at the time, by all accounts earned. I doubt the same could be said of all the 'hats' his ecclesiastical opponents wore.

20 posted on 11/01/2012 10:33:00 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: xone; Alex Murphy

It still defends it because the theology of indulgence is sound, notwithstanding the abuses and the objections of such eminent scholars as Alex Murphy.

And whether Luther earned his cowl I know not, but I do know that he made a vow to God and then broke it.


21 posted on 11/01/2012 10:50:32 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Did you know that you can still buy indulgences today? It's only the currency that has changed. Today you trade your labor for it, instead of coin.

I guess if you call, e.g., Bible reading, praying with your family, or going to church "labor," then your comment makes sense.

I was under the impression that most Christians regarded things like that as a privilege in which they were delighted to partake, not as "labor". Is being in the presence of God and telling him you love him "work," in your world?

22 posted on 11/01/2012 10:57:06 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Claud
It still defends it because the theology of indulgence is sound

The Catholic church today, defends the practices of the buying of indulgences let alone the sale as they operated in Luther's time?

How did something spiritual — an indulgence is after all a remittance of temporal punishment due to sin — come to be "sold"? The theory was that monetary offerings could count as a form of penance, when the donor truly gave sacrificially from his heart, with the proper motive. Unfortunately, the practice easily degenerated into "buying" remittance of punishment for sin. Worst yet, "selling" of indulgences got linked to a misapplication of the principle of praying for the dead in purgatory. Catholic teaching was that one could offer one's penitential acts to God through Christ as a sort of "petition" on behalf of those who had died and were being purified in purgatory.

Who’s Who in the Reformation

Catholiceducation.org would seem to disagree, but there is always this 'out':

Not all articles published on CERC are the objects of official Church teaching, but these are supplied to provide supplementary information.

"Those darned Catholics, always something going on."

23 posted on 11/01/2012 11:02:41 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Claud
And whether Luther earned his cowl I know not,

Of course you do if you are honest. As for breaking his vow to God, when 'God's organization' came gunning for him it seems that the vow he took in that org might be void. At any rate, that sin has been forgiven.

24 posted on 11/01/2012 11:06:13 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: xone
In all honesty ...

If a family member or good friend had a 'Divorce' party, would you attend?

I wouldn't ...

25 posted on 11/01/2012 11:10:49 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey ("I have an open mind ... just not so open that my brain falls out onto the floor!!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: xone
The Catholic church today, defends the practices of the buying of indulgences let alone the sale as they operated in Luther's time?

No. Not the *buying* of indulgences. The *gaining* of indulgences. I've gained a few partial indulgences myself. Didn't pay for a single one of them.

Here's one, from the inside cover of my Bible:

"An Indulgence of 3 years is granted to all the faithful who read the Holy Scriptures at least a quarter of an hour with the veneration due to the Divine Word and as spiritual reading."
Ooooohhhhh!!!! Horrors!!!

So what's with the 3 years bit? In the early Church, there used to be very severe penances. They would take years to complete. So eventually the Church started substituting good works instead: prayers, almsgiving, pilgrimages, etc. The 3 years means that if you do this thing (in this case read the Bible with veneration), it is the equivalent of doing 3 years of severe penance. And the Church has the authority to mete out penance by nature of its power of binding and loosing.

The Catholiceducation.org article you posted was correct. The money was never supposed to be a purchase but a giving of alms--e.g. to the poor. That was abused and easily misunderstood, so the Church put a stop to that. But the doctrine still held and holds today.

26 posted on 11/01/2012 11:20:58 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

I was about to make a similar point, but you did it better. Well done.


27 posted on 11/01/2012 11:26:24 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Claud
so the Church put a stop to that.

I think there were a few years to that process. Again it wasn't after the 95 theses went up and the Church said "wait, this luther is right."

28 posted on 11/01/2012 11:28:14 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
If a family member or good friend had a 'Divorce' party, would you attend?

No I wouldn't, if the guy's ex tried to have him killed and failed, I would hoist a few celebratory beers with him.

But I'm not celebrating a broken vow, I do celebrate the true exposition of the Scriptures, Law and Gospel. Thanks be to God for Martin Luther.

29 posted on 11/01/2012 11:32:03 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: xone
If we are going down the road of highlighting the political sins of 'killed and failed,' as opposed to theology ... I don't what to say...

... because no Protestant state ever came to power and 'killed' and 'failed' people either ...

30 posted on 11/01/2012 11:39:01 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey ("I have an open mind ... just not so open that my brain falls out onto the floor!!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: xone
I think there were a few years to that process. Again it wasn't after the 95 theses went up and the Church said "wait, this luther is right."

Yes, it took years and years to clean out the filth in the stable. The Counter Reformation that we all learned about. And there's still plenty of filth in the stable today, as everyone knows and the current Pope has said.

Luther was right about many things. Not everything. But many things. And I fully admit that the sins of Catholics helped push him to where he eventually went.

31 posted on 11/01/2012 11:43:58 AM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
Success or failure often depends on leadership — what leaders do or fail to do. When it comes to the Reformation, the lion's share of the blame rests squarely with the hierarchy, including the papacy. Or at least so said Pope Adrian VI, who in 1523 sent his legate to confess the following before the German princes gathered in Nuremberg:

"We freely acknowledge that God has allowed this chastisement to come upon His Church because of the sins of men and especially because of the sins of priests and prelates . . . We know well that for many years much that must be regarded with horror has come to pass in this Holy See: abuses in spiritual matters, transgressions against the Commandments; indeed, that everything has been gravely perverted" (quoted in K. Adam, One and Holy, p. 97).

Who’s Who in the Reformation

I am not going down that road. In fact, as far as the prelate's statement goes, I agree with him. The fact is that Luther's life was in danger because of the actions of a Pope in Rome, nobody made the pope do it. Later further actions by the Catholic Church in this area proves Luther was right.

I'm more than happy to remain with the doctrines set forth in the Lutheran Confessions.

32 posted on 11/01/2012 11:50:34 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Claud

That is quote an admission Claud, thanks for the honesty.


33 posted on 11/01/2012 11:52:34 AM PDT by xone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill; Alex Murphy
At the 7:00 a.m. this morning at St. Mary's (my parish), the entrance hymn was "For All the Saints" but my pastor, Fr. Pete, preached on "When the Saints Go Marchin' In." And that wonderful stuff from Revelation.

Note to Alex: I had a weird dream last night about some person I think was you, though how would I know, since I have no idea what you look like? Do you have black hair? No, it was nothing disturbing or salacious. More of an Ambien theme, vague. :o|

34 posted on 11/01/2012 1:14:48 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Have a day.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
Note to Alex: I had a weird dream last night about some person I think was you, though how would I know, since I have no idea what you look like? Do you have black hair? No, it was nothing disturbing or salacious. More of an Ambien theme, vague. :o|

So tell me about this dream you had....


35 posted on 11/01/2012 1:49:26 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Semper Reformanda!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Well, Dr. Semper Reformanda,

It's like this. There was this house. I think it was my house but it didn't look like an particular house I ever lived in. It was either a long time ago, or sometime in the future. There were people there. The feeling was, like "meh".

Or, contrariwise, "hem".

Then whole thing kinda evaporated.

My most cordial greetings to Mrs. Reformanda, and any possible Reformandettes.

The circumspect Mrs. Don-o on Ambien.

36 posted on 11/01/2012 2:29:49 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Though, how could you tell?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
It's like this. There was this house. I think it was my house but it didn't look like an particular house I ever lived in. It was either a long time ago, or sometime in the future. There were people there. The feeling was, like "meh".

Free shrugs

37 posted on 11/01/2012 2:44:30 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Semper Reformanda!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Free Shrugs

Shipping and Handling $7.99

38 posted on 11/01/2012 3:07:16 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stone cold sober, as a matter of fact.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: All
The truth:


Saints are sealed by God, called to be sons of God, and saved by God [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
All Saints or All Souls? Differences should be black and white
The love of the saints [All Saints Day] (Catholic Caucus)
All Saints' Day [Catholic Caucus]
All Saints' Day, (All Hallows' Day, or "Hallowmas") [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Bishops’ Halloween Advice: Dress Children Up as Saints, Not Witches
'We are never alone,' Pope exclaims on All Saints Day
No Mistaking a Saint [Catholic Caucus]

Celebrating 'All Hallows Eve' and the 'Feast of All Saints' in a Pre-Christian West
"From the Pastor" ALL SAINTS & ALL SOULS
All Saints 2009
An Apologetics Primer on Explaining the Communion of Saints ...
THE SAINTS From Around the Year with the TRAPP FAMILY
The Veneration and Imitation of the Saints
Hallowe'en -- Eve of All Saints, October 31st
For All the Saints (College Campuses Seeing Catholic Processions)
Know Your Saints Quiz for families -- Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
All Saints and All Souls

Anonymous Saints [Solemnity of All Saints]
All Saints, All Souls and the Four Last Things
All Saints Day in Poland (beautiful photos)
The Feast of All Saints - What are the origins of All Saints Day and All Souls Day?
All Saints Day - November 2005
All Saints and All Souls
All Saints Day – November 1
The Communion of All Saints
VESPERS (Evening Prayer)Nov.1 2003 Feast of ALL SAINTS
Ideas for Sanctifying Halloween, All Saints Day and All Souls Day

39 posted on 11/01/2012 3:56:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

**Did you know that you can still buy indulgences today? **

Wrong!!!

Where do you get all this erroneous information — a pamplet perhaps? A Catholic hater, perhaps?


40 posted on 11/01/2012 4:04:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill

yep, I am, but I am still a very imperfect one. I keep waiting for God to make me into a new woman but I still feel like a resentful old one. I think differently though, like that it is not right to be selfish, that it is right to live a sacrificial life which makes me a weirdo in today’s world. How about you Fiji


41 posted on 11/01/2012 4:41:32 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

I sure would attend a divorce party. I spend most of my time trying to get people not to do it.


42 posted on 11/01/2012 4:48:04 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey

I mean I would NOT attend a divorce party. I think divorce is a sin. I spend most of my time trying to get people to see it will NOT solve their problems.


43 posted on 11/01/2012 4:51:07 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
I think differently though, like that it is not right to be selfish, that it is right to live a sacrificial life which makes me a weirdo in today’s world

I feel the same way, which makes me seem like a weirdo in my "deep blue" community as well as my professional field.

44 posted on 11/01/2012 7:27:14 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill

what field? I know that psychologists and social workers in particular think they have to be liberal.


45 posted on 11/01/2012 7:33:07 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o
At the 7:00 a.m. this morning at St. Mary's (my parish), the entrance hymn was "For All the Saints" but my pastor, Fr. Pete, preached on "When the Saints Go Marchin' In." And that wonderful stuff from Revelation.

As far as I know, the earliest version of "When the Saints Go Marching In" was recorded by Blind Willie Davis, a country blues guitarist, in 1928. You can listen to a good recording of it here. The hymn was part of the repertoire of the Old Fashioned Revival Hour Chorus Choir, of which my mother was a member.

46 posted on 11/01/2012 7:38:43 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: yldstrk
I know that psychologists and social workers in particular think they have to be liberal.

So do public librarians. Librarianship is a field that ought to appeal to conservatives, who by nature want to preserve our cultural heritage and pass it on to future generations, but finding fellow conservative librarians seems to be about as hard as finding green chile burritos in Newcastle upon Tyne.

47 posted on 11/01/2012 7:53:23 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Fiji Hill

Thank you! Good links!


48 posted on 11/02/2012 4:21:41 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stone cold sober, as a matter of fact.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson